RE-RELEASE | John Lynch: Actively and Uniquely Loved

Talking with John Lynch is a treat. It's getting lost in a conversation, unaware of how much time has passed, or even exactly what you're talking about. It's easy to get pulled into John's warmth and sincerity, but he's also intense when talking about God's love for his children.

John co-wrote a life-changing book several years ago. The Cure: What if God isn't Who You Think He Is and Neither Are You?  has had a radical impact on many people's lives and recovery journeys, and on how they see God's love and grace.

In this conversation we talked not just about The Cure, but about another of John's books, On My Worst Day. It's a memoir of sorts, where John dives deep into his own life, and gives glimpses of what Jesus was saying to him all throughout the story. There's something in there for everyone.

We're thrilled to have John as the speaker for our very first CONNECT Men's Weekend, October 9-11 in Birmingham AL. Click the link below to register to be part of this amazing weekend of encouragement and connection!

#johnlynch #johnlynchspeaks #thecure #truefaced #onmyworstday #gospel #grace #awaken #awakenrecovery #awakenpodcast #whatwereallywant #wwrw  #connection #conversation

John's speaking website (JohnLynchSpeaks)
The Cure (on Amazon)
On My Worst Day (on Amazon)

Awaken's CONNECT Men's Weekend (Oct. 9-11, 2026)

Transcript

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Intro, Greg & Bobby talk about John

John Lynch 0:00

When I have to hide religiously or for any other reason, if it's not safe for me to tell the truth to somebody about who I am, hiding is like a petri dish for sin. So we always say it's less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden.

Announcer 0:19

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:31

Well, hey everybody. Welcome back. This is a bonus episode of What We Really Want. Once again, Bobby is here. I'm here. Two episodes in a row. Bad gum. I don't know if it's what the people want, but it's what we want. It's what we're giving them. So this bonus episode is a re-release of something from almost two years ago. It was our conversation with John Lynch called Actively and Uniquely Loved. And we are dusting off that conversation and presenting it for you again. And we'll tell you why in just a minute. But when's the first time you remember hearing about John Lynch?

Bobby 1:08

Well, I think it was in a recovery meeting. There was that question about is God really who you think he is? From the cure. From the cure. Well, back then it was called True Faced, but Right. And that was my introduction to him was reading, was reading True Face before it became the cure. Mm-hmm.

Greg 1:23

When you think about John and some of the books and some of the things that you've seen and heard in his teaching, what are some of the things that have stood out the most to you that make you appreciate John?

Bobby 1:33

John was extremely instrumental in my spiritual formation when I got into recovery. I read The Cure, and it helped me understand that I had been living most of my life trying to please God instead of trusting him. But that was a paradigm-shifting idea for me.

Greg 1:56

Well, it was a brain-exploding idea for a lot of men because that content had just come out, and John had had kind of developed this talk that he does called Two Roads, Two Rooms, which is illustrated in great detail in the book that's now known as The Cure. And just what you said, you come to a fork in the road, and the signpost points in two different directions, and one of them says pleasing God, and one of them says trusting God. I want to do both of those things. But then when John really drills in and exposes what is often underneath a desire to please God, it's it's not anything freeing. It's not anything that feels safe or free or voluntary. It just feels like a lot of things that are burdensome. And so just taking a look at what does it mean to please God and is he already pleased? It's just a way of talking about it that it wasn't radical in that it's what the Bible talks about, but the way it was talked about was pretty radical.

Bobby 2:56

Right.

Greg 2:57

Some of the things that have been like quotes of his that I keep going back to, it's not often complicated, but it's ways that a lot of times we haven't really thought of things.

Bobby 3:07

There's a quote that says, What if there was a place so safe that the worst of me could be known? And I would discover that I would not be loved less, but more in the telling of it. For me, recovery meetings was the first place that I discovered that. That was the first time I felt the safety that I was actually being loved more by confessing my sins and talking about my brokenness.

Greg 3:36

I have a question.

Bobby 3:37

Yes.

Greg 3:37

Your recovery, your first recovery meeting was about 16 years ago. Yes. From the time that we're doing this today.

Bobby 3:44

Yeah.

Greg 3:44

Since then, have you found other places that feel that safe?

Bobby 3:48

That was actually where I was about to lead to.

Greg 3:50

Oh, that's cool.

Bobby 3:51

So what I started to realize was when I started talking to my friends that weren't in recovery, that when I became honest, I began to experience that the same reality that most of them weren't running away from me.

Greg 4:10

They could handle it.

Bobby 4:10

They could handle it, and that it was actually drawing them closer to me.

Greg 4:15

Probably also made it easier for them to reciprocate.

Bobby 4:17

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Greg 4:19

Getting to go second.

Bobby 4:20

And so it was cool to, you know, to read to read that that that idea from John and then to experience it in recovery, but then also to begin to start experiencing that outside of recovery.

Greg 4:34

Kind of transitioning from what we've just been talking about to an announcement that I am really excited to make. Awaken is offering an event that we've never done before. It's October 9th through the 11th, 2026. It is our very first Connect Men's Weekend. What is Connect? Think church men's retreat. This is not a therapeutic intensive like the Roots Retreat that you've heard, like our little, you know, spot or commercial in the middle of all the episodes. It's not that. This is something that's wide open. It's for any man who desires healthier, deeper connection. Bobby, like you were just describing, where you can be your full self and be welcomed and accepted and, you know, even be challenged to show up that way now that you've heard somebody else do it. This is not a weekend only for men who are already a part of Awaken. It's not a weekend only for men who struggle with addiction. It's really for any man who is a Christ follower or who has some interest in faith and spirituality just to come and to be invited into deeper, healthy connection with other men. Our speaker is John Lynch, and we couldn't be more thrilled to have John coming. He'll be pointing us to the grace and the love and the acceptance of Jesus and just would love for you to be a part of it. Again, it's the Connect Men's Weekend, October 9th through the 11th. You can find out more about it in men. You can sign up by going to awakenrecovery.com slash connect. In the meantime, we hope that you will enjoy and be encouraged and challenged in all the good ways by my conversation with John from a couple of years ago. It's called Actively and Uniquely Loved. Our guest is John Lynch, and the replay of that conversation starts right now.

Actively And Uniquely Loved

Greg 6:14

John Lynch, thank you for being here with me today.

John Lynch 6:17

Greg, I'm honored. I'm truly honored. And I kind of limit my Zoom calls these days. And for some reason, God said, no, no, you'll be doing that one. So so I'm honored to be doing this interview with you, my friend.

Greg 6:31

Thank you so much. Let me just ask you, you know, the question we always start with, John, what do you really want out of the conversation we're about to have?

John Lynch 6:40

I intentionally refused to answer it until this morning. And I found myself saying what is so key to me that is obvious, but sometimes isn't. And I would love this to be some of the result of what comes out of our time. I I wrote in John 15, 9, Jesus says, just as the Father has loved me, I have also loved you. Abide in my love. I want you to say, just don't run. And and I paraphrase it to say, speaking to each one of us, Jesus is saying, Listen, to the exact extent that my father loves me, so also I love you. What? So I wrote this as that big hope. Could we dare to believe that no matter what we did wrong yesterday or last week, that there is no one in the entire world that he actively and uniquely loves more than me. He is not ashamed, disgusted, or angry ever. And because you are a new creature with Christ's heart pulsing through you, he's not afraid of what you're going to do with such love and grace. So that's I that's I think my end game for today. If somehow in our conversation we were able to convince each other that that could possibly be true and that we wouldn't be playing hooky trying to live it out.

Greg 8:17

I I feel like I want to just invite the people listening to feel free to pause and just go back a couple of minutes and play that again. I mean, if that's all we said and that was something that people could hang on to, then mission accomplished of what I was hoping for.

John Lynch 8:34

You're saying it so well. It's I always if I'm in a conference and I use that verse, I say, what would change? What would what would actively begin to mature or heal or be freed in me if I could dare to believe that that was true? And uh it's in scripture, he's he's not joking. You can question his taste, but you wouldn't want to question his character on it. So so you it comes to someplace where how he sees me is no longer dependent upon my behavior, but what he has done and who he is and how crazy he is about me, and from before the world began, he wanted there to be you and me on this planet for his unique plans. And he just can't wait till we show up. So here we are, and he is glorified.

Greg 9:33

And I and I listen and and I watch your face as you're saying that, and I I'm looking at a man who believes I make up that you believe absolutely that what you're saying is true.

John Lynch 10:54

I've had to, just like you. I've had to. I certainly didn't always. I certainly performed for him for so long. And gosh, here I am at 71 and I believe it.

Greg 11:08

And that's exactly tied to what I really want out of talking to you. And that is as we as we talk about several things, and as hopefully you share some of the the things that that came through your story, you know, both of us are at a perspective where we're able to look back a lot farther. And we're able to look back and see a lot of the fruit and a lot of the resolution of some things that were very fruitless and unresolved for a very long time. And and so we've got the benefit of of experiencing some of the promises, you know, being kept. But my my desire is really that that people who aren't there yet and are listening will just get done with this episode and feel a little bit more hope than they do right now.

John Lynch 11:58

Amen. I I love that. And to fight through whatever would keep us from getting to believe those those words. That's right. That what what wait, no, God couldn't do that? It wouldn't be fair, whatever those things are, that they would get to ask those questions, talk to their spouses, wait, I just heard these people talking on the show. Could that be true? Could John 15 9 be true for me?

Greg 12:32

If somebody can go from that couldn't possibly be true to could that be true, I mean, I would be happy with that.

John Lynch 12:39

Game over. That's right. Because then God says, Oh, I got it now. I'll I'll I'll take over for that.

Greg 12:45

That's like the most important, the first and most important movement. That's right. Well, John, before we jump any further into the cure, two roads, two rooms, on my worst day, some of

John’s Story Of Shame And Jesus

Greg 12:58

the things that that I really have been excited to talk to you about, help the people listening to get to know you a little bit more. I I mean, the if if they read On My Worst Day, they'll get to know you very well. But assuming everybody isn't going to do that, just take a few minutes and help us get to know you better.

John Lynch 13:15

Yes. Uh thank you. So I I grew up in Southern California to a Mensa atheist dad. Dad was in the upper half of Mensa. He was an economist, and and and the only class I ever failed in high school was geometry. It broke his heart. But but I came out to Phoenix, that's where we moved, and I I just had the life of life. By the time I was in high school, non-believer, but I was all-state baseball pitcher for my high school. Homecoming queen was my girlfriend, and I was a student body president. I mean, it was just good to be John Lynch. And I and I I always say I I blew out my arm in a playoff game, and I should have had Tommy John surgery, but Tommy John hadn't had it yet. So I I couldn't throw fastballs much. And the sad part of the story is my girlfriend left me for a better picture. But I mean, he had a good slider. I don't blame her for leaving, but uh but I tell you what it did. Here's this girl who knew me inside out, she knew everything about me and she left. And I was like, how could you do that? What do you how do how does someone go on when the person that you have given you to has seen you and said, nope, not enough, I'm leaving. And it I always say, guilt tells you that you've done something wrong. Shame says that there is something uniquely and irreparably wrong with who you are at your very core. And no matter what you do, we all can see it, and it's never gonna change. That's what shame hisses. And it sent me off this straight jock kit. It sent me off on this lonely, broken, desperate other world. Another world where I had I got a 60 Volkswagen, drove it across the country, and I would stop and I would wait tables at one restaurant and then another, uh, up along the coast of California, and I'd have wrong relationships with women. And uh honestly, I I've tried every possible thing I could get my hands on just to medicate my pain.

Greg 15:37

And not for no reason. I mean, when somebody knows a lot about you, knows more than most, and they choose to say nope. I mean, that sets that sets a very powerful emotional and mental and spiritual precedent.

John Lynch 15:52

So you so you have then this longing to be loved. Yeah. You have this longing to be accepted and known, and what you did before didn't work. It wasn't enough. So you put on masks, different masks, and bluff that you're someone more than who you actually happen to be. And so nobody ever gets to love you. Nobody ever gets to know you. They they they get to love your mask, and they can admire you and respect you, but they never get to love you. So so I I ended up, of all things in the world, becoming a high school teacher. I got I went back, got my secondary education to teach high school English and drama. And uh the first play I cast, it was a bunch of young life kids, and I didn't know it. And they would talk to me about Jesus after rehearsal. I I would never let you do such a thing. But they were just kids, you know, how much how much could they do? And then someone gave me a Keith Green album and a slow train coming by Bob Dylan, and I within six months. I I'd put my hope in Jesus.

Greg 17:02

Yeah, couldn't couldn't believe it. I I've been reflecting on the fact that you and I have very different timeline points in terms of when we met Jesus. You know, you're yeah, you're a little older than me. You're you said you're 71. I I just turned 54, but I met Jesus in 1976 as a six-year-old. And so very different home, you know, very different upbringing. And yet, and yet just some of the some of the improper and sideways and trying to meet my own needs, things that followed that sound exactly like things that you've described as I've heard you talking and as I've read what you've written. That's right.

John Lynch 17:44

It's it you would think, no, this would be just the opposite. This guy would struggle with these things all his life, innate wrong, and this guy would would have it together uh all the time. And it's it's we all have these needs to be loved, longing to be loved, and fear that we won't. And the the art of receiving love is the game changer. That's why that's why I put it the last one. I I I kind of walked through this book on my worst day. And seriously, you ought to get it, because it's it follows a timeline and allows you to imagine what Jesus might have been saying to you on some of your worst days. Yeah, uh knowing him as we know him now. So it's very encouraging that way. But I kind of wrote it in four parts of trying to make myself lovable, some of what we're talking about now. And then Christ shows up with a love that I don't have to earn, I don't have to perform for, I don't have to make myself lovable. He's already decided he loves me. And then the next phase of my life, it was okay, now I need to make myself worthy of that love. That that is, I gotta start doing things, I gotta start dressing up a little bit for him and really turning out to be a good investment on his right. Right, right. And and it's so, it's so, you get so tired, you work so hard, and you feel like a phony inside.

Greg 19:28

That's a lot of people I just described right there. Something that you just said when contrasting like the starting point with Jesus between me at six and you at I think 26, the expectation, well, this guy who started so early and had these things in place, would I think the phrase you use would have it all together. And that those four words right there could probably be the chapter heading for a lot of what went wrong for me, because there was that pressure and that expectation as a Christian to have it all together. To to be a Christian was to always do what's right and to and to fake it till you make it.

John Lynch 20:10

You you have you just have to hide. And and we say it in the cure, the book, the cure. Hiding when I have to hide religiously or for any other reason,

Why Nothing Hidden Matters Most

John Lynch 20:21

if my if it's not safe for me to tell the truth to somebody about who I am, I have to hide. And hiding is like a petri dish for sin, it just exacerbates sin. So we always say it's less important that anything ever gets fixed than that nothing has to be hidden. There's such a huge, huge, huge difference. If in raising up in a home, I I lived a total double life growing up from my parents. But what if there was a consequence that was different? If we taught our kids the consequence would be different if you told on yourself rather than waiting until you got caught. It creates an entirely different home dynamic. And so I don't have to hide.

Greg 21:09

You just in a few words punctuated something that's so hard for a lot of the people that I walk alongside in recovery to grasp when you said it's less important that everything be fixed than that nothing be hidden.

John Lynch 21:25

Oh, yes.

Greg 21:26

And and you know, that that you can see it on how people's faces immediately you can see the protest has already begun. That can't possibly be true because that goes against everything I was ever taught. And but it's it's interesting to me, John, because you know, with what we deal with most often, which is sexual recovery, and you've got married people where the partner who has been betrayed is staying and is working on the, you know, working on the relationship and sticking around, so often they will say a version of what you just said and they won't even know why. It's just innate. They'll say, you know, I can handle if you slip every now and then, as long as I know you're not lying to me. And and that's another way of saying it's less important to me that everything's fixed than that nothing is hidden.

John Lynch 22:15

And and how healthy that is, that statement, because sometimes you've also come up against the others, the spouses who say, I will stay, but you can never slip again. If you slip again, I'm gone. And what happens unwittingly, we become the law to that person. Yeah. And eventually it adds that double pressure, and we're gonna slip.

Greg 22:38

And we also don't realize that as the ones saying that, we're we're crappy predictors of the future. We say we say that like I could never get over that. Well, my wife said that to me before she knew that the things she said she'd never get over, well, I had already done that. And so, of course, for me, that was okay, so now for sure I can never ever come clean. But then when it does, when it did come out in 2009, you know, God showed her like you didn't think you could survive this. And by yourself, You couldn't survive this, but you're not by yourself.

John Lynch 23:12

What a powerful day. What a magical day. When yeah, in that crazy, I'm lying to you right now, in the very first time that we're talking about it, because I'm still been doing it. And that's right. Now I'm going to have to tell you in this moment that I've already betrayed what you and to be able to have that freedom to tell the truth. That's right. Is you know, you may leave, you may go away, but this is where I am, and this is who I am. And I will for the rest of my life own that I've harmed you and I've hurt you.

Greg 23:51

Because this is how I have to live if I'm gonna if I'm gonna live the life that I was meant to live.

John Lynch 23:57

And and I I want you here more than anything in the world, but I can't be a liar. I can't create this artificial world where it looks like we're doing well because I'll get sick, I'll get real sick, and you'll know something's wrong. You just don't know what it is. And so instead, to have that beautiful relationship where I don't have to hide. Now that's not true with everybody, as I say, nobody at the DMV cares. But but to but to have some, just to have some where I don't have to hide is the greatest gift. Greatest gift to someone's health that that I can imagine. For sure.

Greg 24:40

Well, getting back to having it all together, I think that that way that I lived my life for so many years and that belief that

Two Roads And The Room Of Grace

Greg 24:48

I had to live underneath that that restrictive pressure is one of the reasons why when I was first told about the cure that it was so dramatically life-giving to me, there was just something about it. First, it was described to me, the concept of two roads, two rooms. Somebody was basically paraphrasing it. And even their poor paraphrase was almost enough to bring me to tears. And so then when I read it myself and I read the description of the pathway that I take, you know, here I am at the fork in the road. And there's one what one era that's saying pleasing God, and one that's saying trusting God. And I want to do both of those things, you know. But pleasing God is what somebody does who has it all together or is trying to have it all together. So take that road, I come to the room of good intentions, you know, I grab that doorknob of self-effort and I walk in there, and everybody's wearing a mask, and and I put mine on too. And I'm reading this and I'm just like constantly, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. That's that's giving words to what my experience that I didn't have words for was, and and that's why it never was gonna work. And so and and then when you talk about discouraged leaving that room and going back to the fork and then going the other way, you know, well, there's no way this is gonna work, you know.

John Lynch 26:18

Yeah, but it's it's incredibly wonderful when that guy now follows that road and opens up the doorknob with humility and says, God, I've wanted so much to be enough to be worthy of your love, and I can't do it. I just can't do it. If anything good's gonna come out of me, it's gonna have to be you and me. I'm gonna have to trust that. Please, God, please be enough, please be enough. And he opens that door, and this beautiful hostess, the beautiful voice that says, Welcome to the room of grace. And and he the audience looks the same, so he's fed up and he rips his mask off and says, You know what? I'm a mess. If you had any idea of half my daily thoughts, you'd want me out of your little room. And I really am failed. I can't keep up. I'm I'm a disappointment to myself. Yeah, and he's just about to-I'm not okay. I'm not okay, I'm doing not fine, and instead of that constant, hey, we're doing fine, everything's fine here, fine, and nobody gets love. Yeah, and I'm ready to walk out of that room and I put my hand on the doorknob, and I hear that voice from way back in the room that yells, That's it, that's all you got. I'll raise your problems and your little struggles, and I got compulsive sin and a lower back pain. And the hostess says, I I think he means you're welcome here. Yeah, and you enter the room of grace. You can't say it except for in Shadish, for this is the manner in which God speaks, and the power to understand grace, that he ends up holding me later and says, I know, I know, I'm not ashamed, I'm not disgusted with you, I'm crazy about you. I made you, and I know the timing of your maturity. I've got this, I've got this. And the whole time he's holding me, I want to fight and say, No, no, no, no, no, I don't deserve that. You got the wrong person. But after a while, he's holding me so tightly, and it dawns on me, I've waited for this my entire life. I don't want him to ever let go. So it's a it's a truly and he keeps whispering in my ear, I've got this, I'm not ashamed, I'm not disgusted, I've got this, I love you so much, I'm crazy about you. And then he says, instead of me trying to work on my sin to achieve an intimate relationship with God, he now says, I was never there on the other side of your sin.

Greg 29:04

Yeah.

John Lynch 29:04

For all those who put their hope on me, I'm over here, and now my arms around you, and we will look at that stuff together. And I I always make this joke in there that God looks at my sin, looks back at me, looks at my sin again, looks back at me, and says, Wow, it's a lot of sin. Don't you ever sleep? And then he says, and we'll deal with it when you're ready. Oh, and by the way, you were ready in five and four and three. When performance ends and trust begins, I really do become someone who aggressively trusts who he says I am, adored without condemnation enough to beloved and and nothing can change it. And when I rest in that, the the beauty that we we we don't hear as often, when I trust that and I receive his love as a byproduct, I sin less and I love more. And that's a yes, that's that's magical.

Greg 30:15

Well, the beautiful thing about what you were just talking about with you know the banner on the wall of you know, God standing next to me,

Forgiven Fully And Made New

Greg 30:24

my sin in front of us, working on it together. That was for someone who had grown up in conservative Christianity, always being told your sin separates you from God, realizing that they got the tense wrong. My sin separated me from God before I was his child. But once that changed, then everything changed. And but that that updating message, if it happened, I missed it. But I think that that it didn't happen enough. I'll just put it that way, to be kind and gracious to people who were trying to trying to instill a good Christian life into this, you know, fine young Christian boy. But but when I read that, what it did is it combined with something else that I was reading, which was A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown, who's also been a guest on the show. And is that right?

John Lynch 31:15

Oh, yeah, yes. Come on, I came after Steve. Disappointment. I've been with him.

Greg 31:20

Calendars, calendars, yeah. But but when when he talks about the in the chapter in Scandalous Freedom about that voice he's gotten and deep, yours is deeper than mine, but neither of us can get down that low. No, not at all. But when he talks about how much of his life he spent trying to get better, and oh, how much of my life I spent trying to get better. And then he said, until I realized that getting better wasn't the point, that Jesus was the point and he was already here. And like that connected to me of the picture I got in my head when I was reading that part of the cure. Jesus is right here next to me, which means if I don't ever get better on this, the relationship isn't dependent upon that. And again, here I am, you know, 38 years old, just beginning my recovery, had been a Christian for over 30 years, but never experiencing the joy of that relationship.

John Lynch 32:14

But you were right on time the whole time. Yeah. To to be doing what you're doing right now couldn't have happened a moment sooner. And it's that's right.

Greg 32:23

And when the AA old timers, you know, quoting from the big books say we will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. Like at first, I was like, that's a load of crap. I regret all kinds of things about my past. And and really, like, I mean, John, there are things that I did that I'm still unhappy that it's true that I did them.

John Lynch 32:43

Because we know how it hurt people. We love it. That's right.

Greg 32:46

Yeah. How it hurt me too, and how it hurt my wife and my children and the people, the church where I was on staff. I mean, there are a lot of people that I hurt. And so I feel sorrow, but sorrow is not the same as regret. I'm not regretting anymore that it happened because, like you said, there was no other way to And think about think about all the Gregs in ministry who are out there in staff roles who they've been hiding for decades.

John Lynch 33:16

They've been living a double life while leading a community. And that's why it's so heartbreaking to the community when it gets revealed their stuff. You know, it I I think it it comes back to Jesus and what he has done, isn't it? It's like what did he forgive when he forgave my sins? He forgave them all. The ones I don't even know about yet. How can that be? But that's what he promises. And our fear is that because we because we're not certain of what's happened to us, we we we fear what we would do with that we would get away with stuff if we believed that. And so we never teach it. Now you're you you were forgiven, but you you know, you gotta do your keep the ball rolling. The truth is that the moment I came to Jesus, Christ came to live in me. I'm actually righteous, I'm actually holy, and the most real me doesn't want to get away with anything. The most real me wants to love you like crazy, and only bad religion will make a rebel out of me. But if I if I can get fed living out of who God says I am, oh gosh, it it wakes up and frees it frees this new life that's in there, that's been there. Yeah, but you have to be convinced of those two things, that he really did forgive everything, everything, and that I'm a new creature, that I am Christ in me. And then you can start to dare to believe that that there's no one on this planet that he loves more or enjoys more.

Greg 35:14

Yeah, and the only thing I would after saying amen to everything you just said, would suggest maybe adding is if you aren't in that relationship yet, where all of the every sin has been forgiven, to remind you that he wants to.

John Lynch 35:32

He is it the for me, after all the things I had done wrong, I thought I don't belong in that world. I I can't be accepted into that world. I've it it's for good people. I thought there were just a room full of good people, right? And to to discover all that we're talking about, there is no amount of sin, no amount of wrong that keeps him from deep right now, he loves you so much. And he says, right now, today, today, if you want, I'll come in and live with you forever, and you won't be able to get rid of me. All you have to believe is that what I did in pain for your sin on that cross, when I allow myself to become naked and separated and nailed to a cross, that was for you, kid. Not so you could be ashamed or embarrassed or disgusted, but so you could be free and and enjoy me another one instead of me trying hard to love Jesus enough, Jesus would say, Thank you. But what I'm really after is, will you let me love you? Will you let me love you? And so whoever you are out there, and you you happen to be listening to this, and you're saying, Man, I'm I'm blown away by the things you guys are talking about, but but I don't know it. And I'm scared because I don't think he'll let me in. I want you to know uh he let this old dog in. And ditto uh and and a younger version, but carrying the same stuff. He says, I've been waiting for you. Yeah, I have been waiting for you. I I you can't even know the beauty that's coming up ahead for you.

Greg 37:28

One of the things I remember from on my worst day is when you were talking about some of your early experiences with

Kindness And Safe People Who See You

Greg 37:36

Bill Thrall, who is a mentor to you and just big brother in the faith, yeah. But some of the things that he would say would unlock realizations in you, kind of the same way that that when I read The Cure and when I watched that YouTube video of you presenting the Two Roads talk, and it it unlocked someone who came and presented with kindness, allowed me to be in a position of being ready and willing to receive something deeper and recognize okay, that's what I've been looking for. So here's a question out of that. How many of us, John, do you think are walking through life with no clear idea of what we actually are searching for?

John Lynch 38:25

Yeah, I I I think you described mankind until that moment that and not just that moment we put our hope in Jesus, but there has to be someone that we allow God in human form that we can trust with us. Because I can't feel myself, I just don't see myself accurately. I I I was a director for so long in place, I was a very good director, and there was always this one guy couldn't direct at all. That was me. And for this vagabond showed up at Open Door Fellowship in Phoenix, Arizona, and I I sat there in the back and just listened to the messages, and then I dared to make an appointment with this man, and he convinced me, like you said so well, through kindness and commitment to me. He convinced me that he was for me and that I wouldn't get thrown under the bus. And I started to dare believe that see truth, I can get information from anyone, but truth comes to the heart with wisdom, insight, discernment. There has to be somebody that I believe know God and know him well and can handle me. And to have a Bill Thrall open the door for me to find others who I could trust with me too. Because when I when I am just John Lynch without protection, without those around me, I can't see myself accurately. And I I I have I have these lies that I tell myself that can give me entitlement to fail. God, I think you can't handle this sin. God, I I think this sin is more pleasurable than you are. God, I think you've been taking care of this person better than you've been taking care of me. Those are all lies that give me entitlement.

Greg 40:30

Well, they'll all lead to so why even try?

John Lynch 40:32

Why why even try? I that's what the other one is. I've always been this way, and I'm always going to be this way. So why am I even battling this thing? And to have someone be able to break the code by being a safe enough place where you can get those things out loud, where they lose their power, that is so huge. So thank you for bringing up Bill. He's been that for me.

Greg 40:58

Well, when I was listening to the audio book and you were talking about the opportunities he gave you, and then the the feedback, you know, he gave you after you'd gotten some negative feedback from someone, and and you talked about his kindness, and uh the phrasing made me think that you were thinking about Romans 2 and how, you know, it do you not know the kindness of God leads us to repentance? But the kindness of God that's expressed often through other people that leads me to repentance, which is you know, change of mind leading to a change of behavior, what have you, but it also leads me to a whole lot of other things. I mean, it leads me to releasing this shame and self-contempt.

John Lynch 41:39

That's right.

Greg 41:40

It leads me to believing things could happen in my life and not just other people's life. It's it's almost like that kindness is the key that unlocks virtually everything good that could come.

John Lynch 41:51

That's so good. It is I was talking to a girl, uh, my wife and I were the other day. She is a delightful person, but she's been wounded throughout her life. And one of her goes to go-to is I want to give you this idealized me so you'll love me, so you won't go away. And it and it takes time. I can't make her call me when she gets into a dark place. She has to do that. I can't know when that is all the time. It's such a beautiful gift when someone realizes what if there was a place so safe that the worst of me could be known, and I would discover that I would not be loved less, but I'd actually be loved more in the telling of it. And she's getting to that place, that precious girl. And she's she just at the end of that phone call, she says, All the weight is gone. All the me that I've been carrying around in my private narrative of who I am. God brings her to some friends, and she's free.

Greg 43:03

I was gonna say those narratives try to sneak back in.

John Lynch 43:06

Well, yeah, I always say it takes 45 minutes to get to either of those rooms, but I can cross over from one to the other in about five minutes.

Greg 43:15

Yeah. Speaking of that conversation that made such an impact on her, that made me think again about the the thing that you referenced earlier from the introduction in on my worst day, kind of the four the the four parts of your life, the trajectory that you experienced. And just to reiterate, the first part was trying to make myself lovable so that I would be loved. Second part, trying to make myself worthy of

When God Feels Not Enough

Greg 43:40

the love I'd found. Third part, trying to convince myself the love I'd found was enough.

John Lynch 43:47

Let's stop there for just a second. Yeah, please. Because you get to a certain place of time in that timeline. Now I'm I'm not dealing with my worthiness as much. I've I'm I'm believing that. I'm believing that he has made me worthy, and I'm no longer as much striving. But now I look at my life and I say, there are things that haven't gotten fixed. There are things that you didn't heal, there's things that didn't work the way I thought they were going to work. God, are you, did you lose your power? I mean, in the old testament, you did big stuff, and sometimes I don't see that in my own life and and that crisis of faith to where God are you enough? Have I placed my hope in the right place? And we feel even in saying that, that we've committed the unpardonable sin. And he goes, Oh, I have been waiting for this conversation. Oh my child. And I don't know where I learned it. I don't know what verse that even came from, but it's it's not so much. I mean, there's sin in the world, there's there's death in the world that we caused. And it's not that he can just keep doing a miracle and not have sin get out into the world and not touch me. So it's not about About that, but it's about what does he do with those things that have harmed me? What does he do with the things that I have caused and damaged? And if Romans 8 28 is in scripture, I'm in I'm in a lot of trouble, but it is. He says, God causes all things to work together for good for those he loves according to his purpose, for for his glory and for my best. He causes all not all things are good, but he causes somehow all of them, he makes no mistakes, he causes all of them to actually work together. And sometimes we don't even see it in this lifetime. Sometimes I at the end of the book I tell a story of a great closure of what happened to me in fifth grade, and I get to see it. But he caught he's that powerful that even right now he's redeeming the damage that happened to me and that that I caused others. And for me to understand that broke me through that crisis of faith. And it's it's an honest, beautiful place to get there because then God only then can give you that answer. Does that make sense?

Greg 46:34

It totally does, yeah. And having gone through those first three parts, then you come to realize at some point that you're in a fourth part of your life where you're actually beginning to experience the life that love has given you.

John Lynch 46:50

My son and I my son's a very good golfer, and I'm a hack at golfer, but but he he took me on a golf trip, just got back last night. And both of us, we had the best time, the most fun time. And we just kept realizing, God, you're right here. You're right in the center of this with us. You're you miss nothing. All the humor you're in on, you're creating some of the conversation that that happens, that that you're you're just right here with us. And it is a magical place when I can replace that religious effort to try to love him enough that would that would make him happy. He says, I don't need that, but would you let me love you? That's my end game. I want to get to love you. I want you to know my love and enjoy my love. That's where I am in the journey right now. That is primarily where I'm in the journey right now. I'm not trying to prove, I'm not ashamed if I don't pray as much as that person. I'm not beating myself up for my past. I'm very comfortable with who I am. And now instead of trying to promote myself to God, I'm letting him shine in me. I'm letting him enjoy me. And it is a blast. I got nothing to prove, but this new life is pouring out of me. That's what happens. Is this without trying? Because Christ is in me and the Spirit of God is working. So I just I'm worshiping in any form that shows up. Yesterday on the golf course, it was it was just us laughing and saying, You're here and thanking him. So I think that's I think that's what a lot of what worship is is not trying to prove to God that I love enough. But what do I say? What do I say? I never thought my life would turn out like this. I never thought I would have this beauty of life. I don't want to forget that because you don't go away. But my experience of you can go away when I'm trying to perform for you.

Greg 49:06

I can imagine that people who are listening saying, Well, sign me up. Like, that's what I want. I want that life. I want to experience the life that love gives me. So show me the hacks. Like, you know, help me. And and like what about somebody who says, I want that for my kids? So, as the nurturing caregiver, like, what can I do to mitigate the harm I'll do to my kids so that I can teach

Parenting Without Shame Or Control

Greg 49:35

them all the stuff you're talking about, and I can help them skip part one, two, and three and go straight to four. First off, is that even possible?

John Lynch 49:43

Oh, what a good question. See, see, mentors can be actual physical, they can be historical, or they can come through a book. And I would, I really would recommend. I don't know if you're familiar, dear friend of mine who I'm writing a book with, uh, Andrew Farley. He's got some magnificent books that can help just anything that he has written in in those ways. But I would say it would be a great gift for a dad or a mom to go through this book on my worst day and go through the cure. And then to be able to be with our kids. And instead of using the old, it's interesting in Ephesians when it says don't poke at your kids, don't don't, don't exacerbate them. If if you don't, you'll get this privilege, they will start to ask you how to live this life. They will want to know. So first you go, wait, I I I've got a whole new way of parenting. I'm going to peel to their new heart. Because we're going to be provoking them one way or the other. That's right. So instead of, you know, you ought to, you should, what's wrong with you? Why can't you? I get to tell them who they are. I get to build them up. And sometimes when they hurt their little sister's feeling, instead of shaming them in front of the little sister and the mom and everybody else in the family, I take them out for ice cream until maybe there's that moment when I say, uh, so what happened back there? That he says, I shouldn't have done that. That was wrong. I mean, she did bug me, but that was wrong. Uh okay, so on the second scoop of ice cream. What do you think we should do? I think I want to go back and tell her I'm sorry, because he's safe now. Yeah, I think we should do that. So we're giving a new way home to our kids. And it takes time. It's but there is, like I said, what if there was a place that was so safe where the worst to me could be known, and I'd discover that I'd be love more, not less, than telling of it.

Speaker 51:51

Yeah.

John Lynch 51:52

It would that I don't have to hide, that my child knows, oh my gosh, I may have to hide a lot of other places, but home's not one of them. They can handle me. And to be able to raise a family, risking that, you you start to create an environment of grace. It takes time, but they will never forget it. My son coming down, he's my best friend. He t he tells me and asks me things that that no one else gets to hear, but maybe his wife. It took time, but to have your children trust you that you believe in him, and then you guys get to go discover this Jesus together, and you guys get to protect each other and say, you know, the thing you're stuck struggling with, my daughter. I want you to know you've come across it honestly. I I've battled with that all my life. And if you'd like, we can talk about it's always age appropriate, you're always doing it age appropriate, but we start to find a new way of not controlling our children, but loving them and loving them well, and letting them love us, and letting them see this Jesus who isn't the bad cop, letting them see this Jesus who says, I've already forgiven you.

Greg 53:15

Because we believe, like you said, like you wrote, that the motivation of grace will always bear more fruit than the coercion of demand. That's good. That's important. Say that again. The motivation of grace will always bear more fruit than the coercion of demand. And it takes me back to the question I ask of like, if we do everything we can well for our kids, can we help them skip one, two, and three and get straight to four? And I feel like the answer, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, is no, because if we're looking for behavior and compliance, then the coercion of demand worked great as a short-term strategy. But if we give people grace, people are gonna abuse grace. And and there's gonna be some variation of one, two, and three. We're going to wander and have the need to come home. Is is the is the time between wandering and coming home gonna be mitigated by the way that we show that grace to our kids?

John Lynch 54:15

And it has to be. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They may take advantage of a lot of things, but not grace. Romans 6 14 says, sin will not be master over you because you're no longer under law or moralism or buckupism or striving hardism or any of those things. Sin will not be master over you because you're no longer under law, but you're under grace. So if I know that, I want to be offering grace to them. And grace is not just, oh, never mind, you get away with that. You did that's not grace at all. Grace is honest, truthful, being able to admit, and there's a there's a response, there is consequences for my behavior, but it's that relational part because I'm not going anywhere and I'm crazy about you, and we're gonna get through this. And when they believe it and they trust you, you have the power and the permission to speak into their life, to teach them truth, to give them love, and to release them. So it so it in answer to that, it it they still may have to go through all of those, but it's a different way.

Greg 55:34

So where we may be able to take advantage of leniency. Yes, that we sometimes call grace. Yeah, that's not what grace really is. Oh good. And so we get to this point or we pray that get that we're brought to this point where I'm reading again, believing we are adored on our worst day, so we are free to take off the mask, and resting in the reality that a shame-free story has been purchased for us.

John Lynch 56:02

Amen. And and still at my age, I still can go to speak at a conference

Staying Out Of Performance Mode

John Lynch 56:10

where I want to be loved and accepted and and believed and have a good week and have people say you're the best speaker we've ever had. And there's a tendency to want to put that mask back on, that that short walk from those two rooms. Yeah. And so I have to keep current in believing what I'm saying and having people around me, the farther I go up in influence or whatever, that there's people around me who know me, who get to say, hey, like my wife, my wife, she's got her own stuff, but I've learned to trust her with me. For her to be able to say, You seem really anxious right now, and you don't have to be. I I'm here, we got you, and I go, I I didn't feel like no, you're right. You're right. And thank you. It's a beautiful way of life that we walk through all these extraneous things that are gonna come in, but they're not the real us. And so to have a friend who believes in me and sees me that way, nothing like it.

Greg 57:19

John, I've taken up so much of your time and you've been so generous. This has been wonderful for me to get to talk to you in real time.

John Lynch 57:28

Greg, I didn't know you existed. To be on here today and go, wait, this younger cat is carrying these truths in such goodness and beauty and reaching people that I'll never touch. I just, I feel the same way. I am so, so grateful that I have gotten to meet you.