74 | Greg Oliver: Who's Asking the Questions Now? part 3

This is a repost of the last of three episodes Greg & Stacey got to record for Return to Heart, the podcast of Tin Man Ministries. We're posting these episodes here, with the microphones turned around, with the title "Who's Asking the Questions Now?"

In this episode Tin Man's clinical director Phil Herndon talked with Greg to... 

• Offer a working definition of addiction
• Distinguish how sexual addiction is tricky and complicated
• Talk about the role honesty plays in recovery
• Understand and deal with stimulation
• Envision holding space for both self-compassion AND taking ownership
• Reinforce the need for community & asking for help.

Addiction doesn't develop out of nowhere. Finding a safe place to unpack your story can not only bring greater understanding, but also the chance to finally break free and live the life you were meant to live. We hope this conversation will bring hope that things really can be different.

Thank you to Tin Man Ministries for their permission to rebroadcast the episode here on What We Really Want!

#gregoliver #awaken #awakenrecovery #philherndon #tinmanministries #returntoheartpodcast #sexualaddiction #sexaddiction #betrayaltrauma #sexualbetrayal #healing #recovery #therapy #connection #rootsretreat #rootsretreatwomensworkshop

Tin Man Ministries website
Return to Heart podcast (Apple Podcasts)
Return to Heart podcast (Spotify)

Transcript

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Intro (with Bobby West)

Greg 0:00

And I just thought there's no substitute for intentionally creating places where this is where we practice telling the truth.

Announcer 0:11

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:23

Hey everybody, welcome back to What We Really Want. This is episode 74. It's called Who's Asking the Questions Now part three. Yes, Bobby's with me today.

Bobby 0:35

I'm back.

Greg 0:36

Bobby's back. Y'all have been wondering, "Where's Bobby?"

Bobby 0:39

The people have been asking, and we're giving it to them.

Greg 0:41

Dang it, Bobby.

Bobby 0:43

Yeah. I I'm getting that now. Do you know that King of the Hill has been re-like there's a new seat, like a new season?

Greg 0:50

No.

Bobby 0:50

Bobby is like in his 20s. I just saw a preview for it. There's a new generation now, like younger. I I went and got coffee the other day, and some like 20-year-old guy was like, Bobby! Like, you know,

Greg 1:02

Hey, Bobby!

Bobby 1:03

I was like, come on, dude.

Greg 1:04

Hank Hill is one of the only cartoon characters I think I kind of sound like. Maybe I don't. I don't know.

Bobby 1:11

That sounds pretty good.

Greg 1:12

So this is the third in a row of us re-posting a series of episodes where Stacey and I, one each individually and one together, were on the Return to Heart podcast, which is produced by 10 Man Ministries. And we just thought those conversations were valuable enough to where, in case any of our listeners didn't hear them on Return to Heart, we wanted them to have a chance to. So two weeks ago was Stacey. Last week was the two of us, and then today we've saved the most insufferable for last. It's just me. But it's Phil Herndon, who's the clinical director at Tin Man, talking to me, and we talked about a lot of stuff.

Bobby 1:52

Yes, you did. I had a chance to preview it. Yeah. And I was telling Greg before we started recording. I was like, in that 30 minutes, I was like, you guys covered so much. It was, it's uh it's basically a sex addiction 101 class summed up in 30 minutes.

Greg 2:10

Something I noticed is when I am the one interviewing somebody else, I think I feel a pressure to keep my comments shorter and to let the guest do most of the talking. And I noticed on this one, like I didn't feel that pressure at all.

Bobby 2:25

Right. Well, that makes sense. And it would also make sense that it feels like it went longer just because you're not the one having to come up with it. It's gonna feel shorter if you're like, oh my gosh, you have to come up with questions and keep this guy talking.

Greg 2:39

I did notice though, like you know how sometimes you're talking about something and you get done and you're like, I've done a lot better than that in the past. You know, like I wish I had a do-over. But then sometimes it's like, man, I'd love if that was recorded because I just felt like I said exactly what I wanted to say the way I wanted to say it. How was it for you listening to i t?

Bobby 3:01

Yeah. Well, first off, I'll say you you were in the zone. You you both were just bouncing off each other. Yeah, well, as you were talking about it, I I was basically like, yeah, that's that this all makes sense. Like, this is my life.

Greg 3:15

I think that if you've been in recovery for a while, it can be helpful sometimes to just kind of go back and read the primer again. And and this conversation could be that for you. If you're newer, or maybe you haven't told anybody about your struggle, maybe you're not in recovery yet, but but really need to be. Hopefully, this will give you a sense that there are a whole lot of other people going through the same thing that you are. And to think, what would it be like to find somebody that I trust enough to let in on it? Addiction, it's tied to unprocessed emotions, it's tied to fear, shame, trauma, all those things. And the it's too much for any of us to unwrap and process by ourselves. We just can't do it. And the fact that you can't do it doesn't mean you're defective, it means you're just like everybody else. We all need help in working this stuff out. That's right. We were meant for community. We were meant for community. And so we hope that you have one. If you haven't found one in the community that we offer, if that's something that you could benefit from, just go to awakenrecovery.com, reach out to us, and Bobby is probably the one who's gonna get back in touch with you.

Bobby 4:23

That's right.

Greg 4:24

Well, Bobby, it's great to have you on a microphone again. It's been too long. That's right. We need to find something maybe that you and I can just talk about and not even have a guest.

Bobby 4:32

Oh, I think people want to hear that.

Greg 4:33

I think they do. We'll give the people what they want.

Bobby 4:36

Let's give them what they want.

Greg 4:37

But for now, something else that hopefully you'll want is to listen to this episode number 74. It is a reposting. Uh, we're calling it Who's Asking the Questions Now part three? It's me being interviewed by Phil Herndon. And that conversation starts right now.

A Working Definition of Addiction

Phil Herndon 4:55

Today I have my friend Greg Oliver. We run in a lot of parallel tracks. Greg, so glad to have you here today. Joining us here on a crispy Friday where we can't decide if it's winter, summer, or somewhere in between. So we're going to do both today outside. So, but in here, we're going to talk about a topic that in one way I'm so glad we're able to talk about it like we talk about it now. And in another way, it's really sad that we have to. Yeah. It's a topic of sex addiction. Right. And so let's just start there. Like you and I have done a lot of work in our own lives and in the lives of a lot of people dealing with this. What's a working definition, even of that phrase, Greg, sex addiction?

Greg 5:33

You know, I think that I'll start with just addiction. I think that addiction develops when I am trying to use a process or a substance to create a desired result or escape. Like if I if there's something that's off and I will take something or do something to make me feel better or make me feel nothing, to make this feeling go away or to make me feel complete, then you know, I lean into that substance or process because it seems like it's doing it for me. I don't usually lean into things that are immediately painful. I usually lean into things that are pleasurable. And they work until they don't work. And so with sexual addiction, it's just taking that overall strategy of either fill the void or not fill the void. And that the something that I run to is sex, sexual release. There's one of the most powerful physiological experiences that we have. And so for a while, it seems to do the trick.

Phil Herndon 6:33

Yeah. For a while. There's the catch. We we've often used a definition around the 10-man world that addiction is an impaired way of attempting to have a full life without paying the price of feeling fully. Right. And man, addiction, as you said, forget what the word is before the word addiction. Addiction is a counterfeit way that feels like, for a while, feels like that I'm actually doing that. Like, oh, this is this is great. I don't have to have feelings, and this lets me live in this world where it's just pleasure.

Greg 7:07

Can I even back up a step before that and say that because of some of the work that you guys have done, and particularly you and Jeff and the Emotions Unveiled Bible study, I think that gets to even the preceding days of what develops into an addiction, because so many people don't have the capacity to really identify the feelings that they're having in their lives. And when they do, they assume that they're bad because they're hard. And we we refer to negative emotions, which I actually don't think there is such a thing. But they're emotions that are hard and that they don't feel good. And so I am trying to change my scenario instead of realizing that this is part of living the full range of how God made me. We're just kind of going through life, assuming that the way I'm feeling, there's something wrong with it.

Phil Herndon 7:57

Yes.

Greg 7:57

And the reason why that gets reinforced is because we're just processing all that in our own heads most of the time. And not talking to other people who can say, Oh, yeah, I feel that all the time. And like I've even come to realize that it's it's it's not that bad. Yes. And so in the spiral of our own brains, we learn these strategies. At least that's how it worked with me.

Phil Herndon 8:18

Same. Yeah, it you know, addiction makes so much sense logically. It's like that thing delivers exactly what it says it's going to deliver relief, anesthesia, you know, numbs me out to things.

Greg 9:44

And uh and doesn't require anything of me, right?

Phil Herndon 9:47

No honesty, no vulnerability, no risk. That's right. Yeah. Then when you add that word to the front of it, it's like, well, wait a minute. Alcoholism gives me a terrible liver. It's a a cause of cancer, auto accidents, falling and hitting my head and dying. Like, oh, there's some terrible things that can happen with alcohol addiction or drug addiction, or I can lose my entire fortune in gambling addiction. Right. And sex addiction is like, hey, what is not to like? Right. So that that that's one of the hooks of sex addiction in particular, where your entire ministry is built built on helping men and women for dealing with that. And ours is, you know, we have a ministry that we want to help people across a gamut of situations, and a big percentage of who we deal with is dealing with this.

Greg 10:34

Of course. And I mean, with sexual addiction, and you know, if you're a man dealing with unwanted sexual behavior, I mean, there's a phrase I've heard a lot. I mean, you're our crack pipe is attached to our

Sexual Addiction is Sneaky & Aggressive

Greg 10:45

body and it's always accessible. And you can begin to get involved in compulsive sexual behavior without spending any money, without involving any other people in the privacy of whatever room you want to go and hide in. And it's so powerful because the the neurological, the chemical release that and the rush that comes with sexual uh activity, I mean, it really is as powerful as some of the drugs that people get addicted to. It's some of the same drugs and chemicals that people get addicted to. It's hard to overstate, maybe impossible to overstate its power.

Phil Herndon 11:19

It really is. And kind of on that theme, Greg, you know, it really does feel like a tsunami, tidal wave, whatever metaphor you want, because of what you just said and you know the the low-hanging fruit on this is the the accessibility. Yeah. It's, you know, and we've heard this over and over, we've said it over and over, and it probably bears repeating. You know, back in the day, you had to kind of work for it. And now, literally in literal terms, not this is not a metaphor or analogy, in literal terms, it is everywhere. Right. It is billboards and et cetera.

Greg 11:52

So well, we're men of a certain age, right? And so when when we had to access porn through paper magazines, that you had to go into a convenience store or a bookstore and you had to actually be seen or risk being seen grabbing this physical thing that you could then get caught with by your parents. That's right. The fear of getting caught is really what kept my addiction from escalating sooner than it did. Yes. For me, it really took that first big, huge categorical leap in the mid-90s when I was in my mid-20s, and I got my first computer with internet access. And then we were off to the races. So you fast forward now. I mean, that was 30 years ago. I I first got my inner my my computer with internet 30 years ago. You know, now there are men coming into our community of recovery who have never breathed air on a planet that didn't have iPhones and high-speed internet all the time. Yes. And the the exposure that you're talking about is so often involuntary. That's a big key component because I heard about porn and it made me curious, and I pursued it. Whereas so many of the men in our community now had somebody take a phone and go, hey, look at this. And before their body had begun to sexually mature, before they knew how to process it, they saw something and their body went, whoa, and it wasn't prepared for this. Yes. And and so it's tragic. The the one positive flip side of that coin is that young men are getting to the point where they feel hopelessly addicted when they are still 19, 20, 21 years old and are asking for help before they've dragged it into other parts of their lives that are going to destroy families and marriages and relationships. So there is a hopeful side of something that began very tragically.

Phil Herndon 13:43

It's exactly right, Greg. That's so well said. You you see it of all ages, and you know, the Chinese proverb says, if you want to know what the water's like, don't ask the fish. You know, it's talking about desensitization. And so we talk You're like what's water. That's right. Uh huh. In the therapeutic world, we I do trauma fo uh a good bit of trauma-focused work and EMDR, that's many have heard of, the D is literally desensitization. But now it's happened in the opposite young men, young women are being desensitized to what is really true. What is true sexual expression? What's the biblical expression that because they've

Intimacy Is a LOT More Than Sex

Phil Herndon 14:20

grown up in this world that the air they've breathed is like water to the fish.

Greg 14:24

And not only desensitized to what sexual expression is, but desensitized to what healthy connection is. You know, and we sexualize. I talk all the time about how I've noticed in culture, we equate the words intimacy and sexual activity. And and I used to be a worship pastor, and and the analogy I use is that's kind of like equating worship with music. You know, you go to church and people say, Well, how is the worship? Oh, it was great. I loved all the songs, you know. And what that does is it cheapens worship because worship is so much more than that. And it also puts too great of an expectation on music because it's expected to be the be all end all of worship. Same with sex and intimacy. I mean, we are meant as people, as human beings, to experience intimacy in so many ways, in so many types of relationships with so many people, men, women, family, friends, you know, and and the sexual intimacy with my wife, that's one part of it, but it's expected to be all of it. Yes. And so, like we're desensitized and not taught how can we actually move toward healthy connection with God, myself, other people. Man. It's so sad.

Phil Herndon 15:33

Greg, I hope people heard that's that is the best analogy I've ever heard to when you talked about people saying worship, they have a certain connection to that word, and it has become music. Yeah. And that that is a powerful, I hope, particularly people who are active in in church, active in you know, consistent worship times, how how that focus on that word worship gets narrowed into music and how intimacy gets narrowed into sexual expression. That's very powerful. Really appreciate you saying that. Well, as a former music and worship pastor, it rings with me. Yes, very rings true. Say more, or let's talk more at least about you know Johan Hari of that book Chasing the Scream, you know, his famous quote, which is absolutely true, and I think one of the wisest things associated with recovery there's ever been. Like he says the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Right. So I think two guys who deal with this a whole lot with people, we probably need to talk about connection a lot as we're together today. So what are you seeing? What have you experienced in your own recovery? Like, talk more about even in your own story, if you if you would, around this idea of connection or lack thereof.

Greg 16:44

Well, the first thing that comes to my mind when you ask me that question is I've learned how to not trust what's going on in my own head, at least not fully. Now, I think I can trust it more than I used to be able to, because I've learned how to process things in healthier ways. Because I did say earlier connection with God, with myself, and with other people. But if I'm not working on my connection with God and with others, I'm not going to be able to grow in how I can connect with myself. And I just was talking with Stacey in the car on the way up here. One of the biggest blessings in recovery was it taught me how to process the things that I'd walk through in healthy ways faster than if I would have tried to do it by myself or just with a therapist, and probably more deeply than I ever would have gotten there. We were listening to one of you guys' episodes where Todd, I think sitting in this chair, was just reflecting back on ways that he had come to understand wounding his wife and said, Man, I can't believe I did things that were that harmful. And I just thought, what a healthy way to acknowledge harm that you did. Yeah. Because early in recovery, when I thought about the way I'd harmed Stacey, it was either what a what a gigantic steaming sack of crap I am. Right. So taking it to what you guys refer to as toxic shame, or having to minimize it because of the shame and saying, well, I don't know what she's so upset about. I didn't do what that other guy did, right? And to be able to say, I did some really crappy things, it doesn't define who I am.

Phil Herndon 18:19

Yeah.

Greg 18:19

In fact, one of the reasons why I was so miserable when I was doing it is because that wasn't who I was. You know, I was acting as a counterfeit person or who I used to be. And I learned how to do that by listening to other men do that. Yes. Men with whom I was in community. Yes. And so that connection really, it's almost synonymous with the word intimacy. I'm allowing myself to be fully known. I'm leaning into fully or more fully know other people and just realize that, gosh, I'm going to hear things that I can relate to. I'm going to hear things I don't specifically relate to, but it sure does remind me of an aspect of my life. Yes. There's no substitute for intentionally creating places where this is where we practice telling the truth. Yes. Because for a recovering addict, it doesn't come naturally to tell the truth. I would lie about things I didn't even need to lie about.

Phil Herndon 19:14

Amen.

Greg 19:15

Because it was like breathing.

Phil Herndon 19:16

Yes. I uh an old crusty guy in my in my history early on in recovery. I I I recover in my mid-20s. He told me one time, he's he's an old Oklahoma guy. He said, son, you'd rather climb up a Greece flagpole to lie than stand on flat ground and tell the truth.

Greg 19:36

Exactly. Unfortunately, he was right. And I, yeah, I can so relate to that. Before we started recording, you and I were talking about an experience that I had with an amends that I made. And I found it involved I had stolen money

Recovery Requires REAL Honesty

Greg 19:50

from the petty cash at the church where I worked to fund some of my acting out behavior so that there wouldn't be a trail. And I knew I needed to make an amends for that. But I found myself even going to that amends, tempted to short sell and use the word took instead of stole because it didn't sound as bad. But I had been around enough recovering people who just told it like it was and taught me what it's like to say the thing you don't really want to say. Yeah. And then get to be among and get to be one of the people that just says, Man, thank you for sharing that. And like nothing exploded, nothing blew up. And so I think that that again, that community, that connection with people who are being real taught me how to do that in really some challenging scenarios.

Phil Herndon 20:38

I think on a previous podcast episode, I think, but that scene in John 13 in the upper room, we we do remember that Jesus, as we say, took the towel in the basin and served. What we often will overlook is he also did something else in that room. He said something awkward that he didn't necessarily have to say about what Judas was going to do. And and Jesus, I say to people, what Jesus is doing there, he is speaking the plain truth plainly. You you said, you know, I I didn't take the petty cash. Technically I took it, but it was stealing. Yeah. You spoke the plain truth plainly.

Greg 21:18

Yeah. Because if I went in and said, I'm gonna take that and go buy some office supplies, uh if I'm gonna take it to go pay for something, you know, that's fuel my sex addiction, that's stealing because nobody else knew about it and they wouldn't have said it was okay. That's right.

Phil Herndon 21:32

You can buy a stapler, you can go pay for that. That's exactly right. And we even even taking off on that this territory of stimulation that we kind of started the the front part of earlier, like that's stimulating to take it, even that part that's stimulating to take that money, steal that money. Isn't it amazing how it's more stimulating to say, well, I just took a few dollars and did something with as opposed to, hey, I stole that money and went and acted out with it. Underneath sex addiction sits this cycle around the love of stimulation. Like I I've I've come to believe,

Stimulation & Learning to Respond, Not React

Phil Herndon 22:08

no pun intended with the second step. I've come to believe that so much of what manifests itself as sex addiction begins with this desire for stimulation. Neglected children need stimulation. Overly stimulated children will become sensitized to the need for stimulation. And it's so stimulating to tell a lie and have to cover it. It's so stimulating to have a secret life that no one knows about. So stimulation seems to me to be such a pump for all manner of addiction, certainly sex addiction.

Greg 22:38

I mean, stimulation, gosh, it's such a deep word to parse and unpack. And again, like a lot of other words, you hear stimulation, and you automatically think sex or erection or you know, something arousal, something like that. But one of the things that I hear more often than anything else, as far as hey, before you slipped or relapsed or binged or acted out, what was going on before that? So often I was bored, I was lonely. Yeah. Right? There was a lack of Of activity, there was a lack of stimulation, there was a lack of connection. And so stimulation is beautiful. Like we sometimes need to have a stimulus to get us off of our butts and move in ways that's good for our bodies, it's good for the world around us. But if I condition myself to require a certain amount of dopamine stimulation that's unhealthy, that's not natural the way that God created it, then I get myself kind of painted into this corner where normal stimulation isn't going to feel good, right? Or where I get so reactive to the stimulation to where it just seems like as soon as this thing happens, I'm off to the races. Yes. You know, I love we we talk about you quoted Johan Hari. I use that quote a lot. I also quote Victor Frankel, who said in between stimulus and response, there's a space. Yes. In that space is my ability to choose my response, and in that choice is my growth and freedom. But we don't, my fellow recovering addicts, we don't think of it as a space. We think of it as like this happens, and then before it's even stopped happening, this happens. Yes. But if we zoom in the microscope, there's a tiny amount of space. And if we can see that I actually do have a choice, which again, I don't think that I practically really even have it if I'm doing this on my own. But when I ask for help and bring others into it, that space gets a little bit bigger. And I listen to what other people did when they were in that space. And I think, well, what if I did that when I was in that space? And then I begin to have a very different experience with stimulation. Like it's not being stimulated that's a problem. It is what does that create in me, a sense that I need to do or that I need to have. And what if I could get that really good need met in a different way? That at first isn't gonna feel as good as an orgasm, but it's actually gonna give me what I need. And so long term, it's gonna satisfy me in much better ways. That's exactly right, Greg.

Phil Herndon 25:06

I you know, there's a lot on the table. You put a lot on the table just with that. It's beautiful, though.

Bobby 25:11

It's like I don't usually give short answers.

Phil Herndon 25:13

So no, they're great. Like these are the you're talking about the components of how we're made, what we do with how we're made, and that that Victor Frankel space between those two, my son and daughter-in-law have their degrees in applied behavior analysis. So they work with autistic children. Wow. So they know a lot about the brain and stimulation. They do a lot of things with children with that. And they have, I have an 11-month-old granddaughter, and all of her toys, most of her toys, are brightly colored. They make sounds, the things light up, mobiles move. So the human brain, she loves, she loves those things that bright color. She'll hit those buttons and make that thing bright, lighten up, light up again. So the brain is made for that. And an addictive disease, the the enemy whose hand is in that glove of addiction, loves to take things that are normal to human. We love stimulation. The brain's made for stimulation. Sex is made to be pleasurable. We're made to live abundantly, and all those things end up being counterfeit fulfillment, as we call it, yeah. To meet that need.

Greg 26:19

What you're saying right now reminds me of something you said on one of your recent episodes, talking about supernormal stimulation, you know, in the cardboard butterfly Nicholas Tinberg experiment. So go back and listen to that one. I think it was maybe number 15 or something. But you're talking about your grandchild's brightly colored kids' toys. I've got a four-year-old grandson, and our daughter and son-in-law have done such a good job at researching and knowing what stimulates him versus what overstimulates him. And so minimizing screen time, even the shows and the videos that he watches, not ones that have the a manic kind of production style, because the same thing that's good when it's tactile toys becomes too much when it's, you know, at a certain speed, a certain rate, a certain, you know, franticness to it. And so we're talking about kind of the same thing.

Phil Herndon 27:11

Yes.

Greg 27:12

You know, when we look at pornography, that is awakening the same things in our bodies and in our lives and in our emotions and our nervous systems that healthy sexuality does. But it's too much. And the overstimulation reconditions us to where the way it was designed to be experienced doesn't do anything for us anymore. And it affects every relationship. It affects how my masculinity or femininity shows up just in not even sexual relationships. It affects every part of me. Yes. And the sad part is we don't realize it's happening until after it's happened. And now we've got to crawl out of this big crater.

Phil Herndon 27:49

Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's exactly right. And it you and I share a love for the neuroscience of period and the neuroscience of addiction. You know, there's an area of the brain called the ventral tagmention area that's in charge of releasing the dopamine.

Greg 28:02

Yeah.

Phil Herndon 28:02

And we do something, and the it's called, you know, the VTA. The VTA says, you know, that's an awful lot of dopamine for the same thing. I'm gonna cut that back a little bit. Well, in addiction, we don't go, hey, I'm not having quite the payoff. I guess I need to stop. We go, I guess I better double down. And we call that increased tolerance in the literature. But what you're describing is like we we're our brains are made for more for stimulation, and once overstimulated, that will create this, it will create this supernormal paradigm that we continue reaching for, reaching for, reaching for. How many people have you talked to, worked with? You mentioned it earlier, just in terms of a sociological change, techn technological change. If you talk to that started with something and

Understanding AND Taking Ownership

Phil Herndon 28:44

now they're way over here. Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Greg 28:49

All of them.

Phil Herndon 28:50

It grows.

Greg 28:50

Yeah. And I think, you know, there's also a generational aspect that I can speak to really quickly. People that are more like my age, you know, I'm in my 50s, versus somebody who's in their 20s now. You know, we talk about porn and masturbation as kind of the two on-ramps to what becomes compulsive sexual behavior. For me and people in my generation, it was the discovery of our bodies, discovery of something like masturbation. And then almost always pornography came later and was an escalation of something I was already doing. Almost 100% of the young adult men that I talk to now were introduced to porn years before they even their bodies were able to masturbate. And so something that's normal curiosity, that's an expected part of adolescence, it was already impacted and infected by this distortion of God's design for sex before they had a prayer. And so, like, I think it's important in saying all these things not to paint a picture of, well, he just couldn't help it. Yeah. Like, especially people whose sexual broken behavior has hurt partners or other people, because every one of us who did the things we did is still responsible for the things that we did.

Phil Herndon 30:06

Yeah.

Greg 30:07

But it's important to understand we didn't do them for no reason. That's right. And we most of the time didn't do it with the intention of hurting the people that we love.

Phil Herndon 30:16

Yes.

Greg 30:16

You know, both things are true at the same time. I hurt the people I most deeply loved, and that's not what I was trying to do. Yes. And I've got to in recovery, I have to reconcile that stuff. Recovery is a lot more than just stop looking at porn. It's about like, what where did my life go sideways and how can I get back on the track that God wanted me to live? Yes.

Phil Herndon 30:36

Back to the gap idea. I did that, it caused harm. That wasn't my intent. And in the middle of those two things are things called a thing called feelings. And so so often we stay in the loop because I recognize that, like, oh my goodness, I've done such damage. I have those feelings about it. So what I do with those feelings, well, I medicate those feelings, shove them down. And I continue in the loop of addiction. And so that that gets back to how I love how you, every conversation you and I have had about this, formal and informal, you hammer the need for community. Yeah. And that is one

Community is Irreplaceable

Phil Herndon 31:10

of the hidden gems of all the we could we could stay here all day talking about this, but that's one of the hidden gems of recovery is not being alone. There's a I I think it's one of the most profound statements I've ever read that said, children are not afraid of the dark. Children are afraid of the dark alone. Yes. This is part of us. So I love the way you hammer that, Greg. And so when we we go, oh, I've done this, I didn't mean to have feelings about it. If that's left up to me to deal with that gap, I'm probably going to continue medicating those feelings I'm having about what's happened. I'm going to double down on that as opposed to having a Greg, having a friend to talk to about that.

Greg 31:50

Yes, and amen. And then saying, I think that the Bible even gives us a glimpse as to why what we're talking about is the way that God meant it to be, even when it comes to confessing our sins and our failures. Because a lot of people have said to me, Well, it's embarrassing to talk to other people about it. Yes. Yeah, it is. There's going to be consequences if I talk to other people about it. Yeah. They suck. And it's, it's, it's, it's going to be bad sometimes. So I'm just going to talk to God because 1 John 1 9 tells me if I confess my sin, God's faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Yes, amen. The Bible does say that, and it is true. But in James 5, it also says, confess your sin to one another, that you may be healed. And I think that God has set up a process of confession where he intends us to confess to him, but not only to him. We need the experience of telling the truth to another person that's sitting across from me in flesh and blood, looking into my eyes with his eyes, listening to me say the most awful things I've ever done. And he looks back at me. I'm talking now about my sponsor when I first told my whole story in 2009. And with tears in his eyes, he said, I am so sorry you carried that by yourself for so many years. Wow. And I've never been more proud to be your friend than I am right now. And I will walk with you. That was healing to me in a way that would not have happened if I would have only told God, no doubt about it. Community is an irreplaceable piece of health and healing and recovery.

Phil Herndon 33:30

And how many phrases have we heard along those lines? That we we read, I think it was Lewis that said, you know, the most powerful words in human language are me too. Me too. But that even goes at a deeper level. That when that man looked at you and said that, I'm just imagining that scene, you looking at this man, him telling you that what must have happened inside of you even deeper and beyond me too.

Greg 33:54

That's right. Because I was hearing Jesus saying that to me channeled through the voice of my sponsor, my friend. That is powerful, man. And God knows that that's how he's chosen to do it. And I don't fully get his economy or how he does it. And I don't have to, which is the cool thing. Like he cared for me with me just stumbling into this, not even knowing that I was doing a good thing.

Bobby 34:17

Yeah.

Greg 34:17

You know.

Phil Herndon 34:18

You know, Greg, I I you and I've talked about this too, kind of off the grid, but I I'm very aware, and I know you are too, every time I'm behind this microphone, yeah,

Ask For Help (and Final Thoughts)

Phil Herndon 34:28

there's every chance in the world somebody's listening that really needs to hear it. Yeah. That that the Lord may use this and the Awaken podcast and others to provide healing. So what do you want to say to that man or woman who stumbled upon this thing or listens regularly or whatever? What do you want to say to the person who is on the cusp of what we're talking about today?

Greg 34:54

You're feeling something right now that's saying, reach out and ask for help. And very quickly, there's going to be another voice saying, No, you don't need to do that, or it can wait. Great call. There are going to be competing voices. And I would say, trust the one that's saying, What I've tried isn't working. And just listen to me say, I know how scary that is, because to try something that we say will work means that somebody else has to know.

Bobby 35:23

Yeah.

Greg 35:23

And that is one of the most terrifying things until you've done it. And it doesn't stop being scary after you've done it, but it becomes less scary. It's a lot easier to bring somebody into it the second time than it was the first time. And then easier the third time than it was the second time. And so asking for help is really the only doorway that we can walk through that's going to lead to what you've been trying to do on your own. And so I would say if there's a part of you saying, reach out and say, I need help, is just do it. Like do it right now. Uh because you're hearing from God, you're hearing from your true self. The part of you that wants to be well, which is the true you, is telling you with clarity what you need to do. Yes. And by the way, if you talk yourself out of it and you don't reach out for help until a year from now, nobody at 10 Man, nobody awakened is going to say, Shame on you. That's right. We're going to say, I'm so glad you reached out. Whether it's today, whether it's a year from now, whether it's 10 years from now. I'm just inviting you to spare yourself more of the pain and more of the damage by reaching out now.

Phil Herndon 36:27

Yes, right on. That will uh end with something that sounds so very clinical that really isn't. Years ago, the American Medical Association was arguing about addiction being a disease. No, it's not a disease, you know, and and so the American Medical Association's own criteria says that a disease is something that is a that is observable. Well, this is certainly observable. Yeah. It is progressive. It's certainly progressive and can be fatal if not treated. And this thing kills people. Yeah, it does. Literally. People die from this. Yes. And so this is a this is a very big deal. And so we this is not nearly as much a pitch for awaken or ten men as it is kind of a plea to say, I love how you said that. The grace, the grace you said that with. Please reach out. And maybe you'll reach out a year from now. That's okay. Just reach out. So you know, we live three hours apart and don't spend enough time together. Let's love having you here today. Thank you. I co-sign on that. I hope we get to do it more. Me too. Thank you, Greg.

Greg 37:31

Awakenrecovery.com. Yep. Awakenrecovery.com and what we really want dot show is how you can find the podcast. I mean, you can get there from our website, but what we really want is real is named after that Johan Hari quote. Oh. Because what we really want is connection, and also from something Michael John Kusick said in his book, Surfing for God. So yeah, find us either one of those ways. We'd love to hear from you and hope that just when you hear from us, it'll be encouraging.

Phil Herndon 37:59

That's fantastic. Awakenrecovery.com, 10men.org. Thanks for listening today. Hope it is helpful. And I'll just end with this. If you're listening to this, and I we really want you to hear what Greg had to say, call someone that you believe you can trust to start your journey of healing. Thanks for being with us today.