73 | Stacey & Greg Oliver: Who's Asking the Questions Now? part 2

In the Spring of 2026, Stacey and Greg were honored to record a few episodes for Return to Heart, the podcast of Tin Man Ministries. We're posting these episodes here, with the microphones turned around, with the title "Who's Asking the Questions Now?" Last week you heard Phil talking with Stacey (solo), and next week will feature a conversation with Greg.

In this episode Tin Man's clinical director Phil Herndon talked with Stacey and Greg to discuss childhood experiences, marriage expectations, coping strategies, addiction, betrayal trauma, and the long road of recovery (individually and together).

Addiction that leads to sexual betrayal is complicated. It's a horrible breach of trust and does colossal damage to a relationship. AND, often that damage is the last thing the betraying partner had set out to do. The early wounds that contribute to addiction were often having their effect long before the relationship started. Healing is a long journey, and reconciliation is possible, but not guaranteed.

We hope this conversation will bring hope, encouragement, and things you can work through with God, your partner, or a trusted friend.

Thank you to Tin Man Ministries for their permission to rebroadcast the episode here on What We Really Want!

#staceyoliver #staceyandgregoliver #gregoliver #awaken #awakenrecovery #philherndon #tinmanministries #returntoheartpodcast #sexualaddiction #sexaddiction #betrayaltrauma #sexualbetrayal #healing #recovery #therapy #connection #rootsretreat #rootsretreatwomensworkshop

Tin Man Ministries website
Return to Heart podcast (Apple Podcasts)
Return to Heart podcast (Spotify)

Transcript

Why We Keep Telling This Story

Greg 0:00

You know, I'm not ever perpetuating continuing to lie. I think God was even sovereign over that because I think that maybe hearing it all at once would have been too much for Stacey. And he gave her that week to begin getting support in place so that when the final bomb dropped, she had, I think, even greater capacity than those first six days. I don't know if you feel that way about it.

Stacey 0:23

I had a moment of just like, God, either everything I've learned from becoming a Christian at five years old is not true because I never thought this would be the story that I would get. This is not what I think I heard growing up. Or somehow, somehow, you you have a plan.

Announcer 0:40

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:53

Hey everybody, welcome back to What We Really Want. Today is episode 73. Last week you heard Who's Asking the Questions Now part one, which was Phil Herndon's conversation with Stacey. A while back, we went had the opportunity to go to Nashville to have three different episodes recorded for the Return to Heart podcast from Ten Man Ministries. We want to make sure that you get a chance to hear that. And so last week we put up Phil's conversation with Stacey. Today is his conversation with the two of us. Hunt, it's been now probably going on five or six months since we drove to Murfreesboro and uh recorded these conversations. But what do you remember about that?

Stacey 1:34

I remember that I was a little nervous to talk to Phil by myself. Not anything about Phil, he's wonderful, but just like, oh, just me. Because I feed off of things that you say a lot of times. Like you'll prompt something, you're you'll say something and it'll make me think of something.

Greg 1:52

You didn't seem to have a lot of trouble.

Stacey 1:53

Yeah, I didn't have any trouble. I never do. I don't know why I worry about these things because I always say, I don't know what I'm gonna say on this one. I don't know, like I don't need much prompting, and the words just come out, they're not always great, but it was fun. I enjoyed it, and it hit me when I I guess when they released it and I was listening, I was like, when we were doing the the recording, I didn't think about the fact that Phil is a therapist. And I was like,

Greg 2:20

That sounds like a compliment.

Stacey 2:22

Yeah, he was amazing, and I was like, I am getting therapy in this interview. I love this. Just some of the things he affirmed. Yeah, I guess that I was like, oh, yeah, he's a therapist, so that's good. So I don't know if that sounds prideful, I don't mean it to be at all, but it was just really cool.

Greg 2:40

Yeah, it's kind of it's just gross.

Stacey 2:41

It was just a conversation.

Greg 2:42

It's gross.

Stacey 2:43

It was a conversation, it was comfortable, it was kind. He was so kind, and I just really appreciated it.

Greg 2:50

Well, and and the one you're about to hear was Phil's conversation with the two of us, which actually I think if I remember right, was the first one that we recorded.

Stacey 2:57

So, yeah.

Greg 2:58

For those of you who are well familiar with our story, this is just gonna be another opportunity for you to hear it. Yeah.

Stacey 3:04

We talk and not listen if you want to.

Greg 3:07

Well, I'd still like them to listen. Okay. At least download it.

Stacey 3:09

I give you permission to say, I've heard this story. But you haven't heard us talk about it.

Greg 3:14

With Phil.

Stacey 3:15

With Phil. So I think it's definitely worth it.

Greg 3:17

You know, every time we tell and retell our stories, I think we glean something from it. And so you might as well. But this is Stacey kind of sharing what the stuff that we walk through was like for her, how it affected her for me, what was going on in the midst of all of that, and kind of what the before, during, and after has been like. And so for other people who are walking through this, either it's not out in the open yet or it is, and you're not sure where it's going. We just hope that this will be an encouragement about what can happen, what God can do when people surrender to a process that He puts in front of us. And that's I don't say that to pat us on the back because the process was excruciating at times. We fought kicking and screaming sometimes, but you know, ultimately now this blew up at the beginning of 09. Here it is 2026. We are where we are, largely because of this process that God put in front of us. And it's the same thing that he offers to everyone who's going through sexual brokenness or really anything else in life that causes trauma and distress. And so we hope that you will be encouraged, challenged, inspired, whatever you need out of this episode. It's number 73. It's called...

Stacey 4:31

Hold on...I have something to say.

Greg 4:33

You have something to say? Okay. I was ready to wrap it up.

Stacey 4:37

I know. Something that I said to my support group recently it's hard to stay married. It has been hard to stay married. It is hard to continue growing. So just for whatever that's worth. Yes, we share our story, and God has done amazing things, and I'm very thankful. But it's also hard.

Greg 4:56

Yeah. Y'all, this is episode 73. It is Phil Herndon interviewing us. It's called Who's Asking the Questions Now Part Two? And the replay of that conversation we had with Phil starts right now.

A Couple’s Story Of Exposure

Phil Herndon 5:11

We are thrilled you're here with us today. We have a special episode today. My dear friends Greg and Stacey Oliver are here today. They operate Awaken, a recovery ministry based down there in Birmingham, and we are thrilled to have both of you. It is so fun to be together finally. I we were we podcasted together a year or so.

Greg 5:31

Almost two years ago. Oh, yeah. We love hanging out. You were on episode four of our podcast. And it's our most listened to episode. Sorry to say that again. It's our most listened to episode.

Phil Herndon 5:44

Oh, I have no idea how that's true, but I I believe it. So that's great. It's been fun to do that. So we share uh at least part of our work is dealing with people who have fallen into sexual addiction, sexual sin, pornography, and the whole gamut. So this is uh sadly, and I guess gladly for our work a really common subject. And so there's all kinds of stuff out there. So we just wanted to sit down with with you two as a couple and talk about obviously when that has hit a home or hit a relationship, it it's a big deal. Yeah, it's devastating. So I just want to turn you two loose to kind of let's just start the conversation around, tell maybe even part of your story about how that's affected you.

Stacey 6:26

Yeah.

Phil Herndon 6:27

Yeah.

Greg 6:27

You want me to go first, or you want to go first?

Stacey 6:30

You can go first.

Greg 6:31

Well, coming in here, and we were talking about this a little bit on the way up, just kind of speculating how the conversation might go. But we're sitting here on about 34 and a half years of marriage, not quite, but about 34 years. And the first 17, there were a lot of things that were good and a lot of things that felt like, man, they should be better. Stacey didn't understand a lot of what was going on that was keeping them from being what they could be. A lot of it had to do with my secrets and lies and things that I was hiding, because I brought a sexual addiction into our marriage, thinking, as most people do, that getting married is gonna be the remedy for unwanted sexual behavior. I mean, I think that's the most commonly believed falsehood about sexual addiction. Yeah, probably the second only to that is that it's actually about sex. I think you're right on both counts. Yeah, sex is the strategy that I adopted to try to get a need met that that was a good need, but that wasn't gonna ever gonna be the the ultimate meeting of it. And so, yeah, we we met in Bible college in 1989 in Birmingham. I had grown up in a very, very conservative church in Huntsville, Alabama, and Stacey will probably tell more about her growing up on the mission field. And so, not a whole lot of exposure to knowing how to process the world around us, very much growing up in a bubble and unprepared for life and unprepared for marriage. And, you know, I think I know we would say both of us had, I can speak to my strategies that I developed to try to make life work. And and I just thought that as long as I have a partner and as long as I have a good sex life, then every anything else that comes around, I'm gonna be able to manage. I wouldn't have given those words to it, but that was kind of my functional way that I kind of walked through life. And I was preparing for full-time vocational ministry because I was training to be a worship pastor, which is something that I did for about 15 years. And, you know, there's a there's a line in one of the Star Wars movies where Luke Skywalker says, you know, that's wild. Every word in that sentence was wrong. It's like everything that I was thinking was the issue, the problem, and the solution was wrong.

Stacey 8:45

Yes.

Greg 8:45

And so going into marriage, finishing up a degree in music and theology, and then getting into full-time ministry, it's like I was completely unprepared for the escalating stresses of life. And I I've I know I'm kind of all over the place, but one of the things I have come to realize was the biggest contributors to what became my addiction, and then, you know, a deepening addiction was the inability to healthily process and manage stress. Yeah. You know, the expectations and the image and the way I thought things were supposed to be. And whenever I didn't feel like I was measuring up, I would just run to the thing that would numb that out and make those feelings go away. And as any addiction goes, the more you do it, the more you have to do it. Because, you know, the tolerance and threshold rise, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and you know, what used to make me feel like my needs were being satisfied didn't do anymore.

Phil Herndon 9:42

Yes.

Greg 9:42

And so over the years, those first 17 years of our marriage, one line after another just kept getting crossed. And things that I said, well, I know it's not good that I'm doing this, but at least I'm not doing this. Well, now I was doing this. Well, at least I'm not doing this. And then one after another, those boxes just got ticked off. And now I've stepped over so many lines and done so many things that my my marriage will be destroyed, my family will be destroyed, my ministry will be over. So, of course, nobody can know. And that just was life until, you know, at the age of 38 and a half, God blew it up, and which felt pretty horrific and traumatic, but was the kindest thing he could have done in early 2009. I was exposed. I didn't voluntarily disclose, and it was it was terrible. And it was the the way it had to happen for things to start to change.

Phil Herndon 10:38

That's part of the miracle of recovery, isn't it? My worst day is my best day. Right. It it really is that way. You you kicked off, Greg, talking a little bit about growing up in Huntsville, strict conservative family, and some of the ideas you had about life, about marriage, about sex, about satisfaction, about contentment, that kind of thing. So I want to ask you, Stacey, um, your version of Greg kind of talked about, okay, this this is the Greg that entered marriage with Stacey. So how about the Stacey that entered

Rules, Shame, And Early Marriage Scripts

Phil Herndon 11:06

marriage with Greg?

Stacey 11:06

Yeah, pretty similar, interestingly enough. I was in Africa growing up, West Africa. I was nine when we moved there, and very similar, like I mean, totally different environments, but the strictness, the you know, a lot of all the rules and all of that. I would say I had an incredible biblical foundation, I had incredible Bible teachers and went to a missionary kids' school. But I guess the emphasis on the rules was probably what had me thinking, like, I have to do the good and not the bad. It was just such a focus on that. And I think I also learned from a young age, like I'm an introvert and I'm not gonna go out making waves and I will follow the loud people. And I saw people get in trouble, and I didn't want to get in trouble. So I learned very young at a young age to just be good and I did it really well. Like I was a really good kid. I didn't get in trouble. I mean, I wasn't perfect, of course, and I got grounded for various things, but I mean, I generally follow the rules. And I think I I I just wanted to grow up and get married and be a mom, have a family. So came back to the States after graduating high school and went to Bible college and had just much of the same as far as the strictness and the rules. And but again, I'll I'll obey those rules until I met Greg. No get away with bad influence. Yeah, bad influence we met initially, weren't that fond of each other because I thought he was kind of wild. He danced at a Christian concert. Oh my goodness.

Phil Herndon 14:21

What in the world? I didn't know that about him. But we were friends, Greg.

Stacey 14:25

Yeah. The artist invited some people to come up and just they were, you know, it was a Christian concert and they were not doing anything bad. But I was like, hmm, dancing. And his hair, well, I guess your hair couldn't have been too long because it was Bible college, but I was like, There was still a little mullet left.

Greg 14:40

It was it was the 80s. Uh-huh.

Stacey 14:43

And I'm like, he's just not serious for the Lord. And of course, he's thinking about me is, you know, goody goody. And I didn't mean to be, but I was. I just was. So, but we started talking. I don't know, there's one conversation we were having about a hard thing you were going through, a hard thing I was going through, and we just really gelled and enjoyed talking, and it was easy. And started talking about dating. And then I I don't know how I even told you like my criteria for dating, but one of them was that you don't date anybody you know you couldn't marry. And I knew that he wasn't training to be a missionary. So I'm like, I can't, I can't date you because you're not gonna be a missionary, and I'm gonna be a missionary. And I didn't feel a call from the Lord. Don't don't think that it was that spiritual, it's just what I knew. And so we had to have that conversation for a while. Fine finally found a loophole. He said he'd be willing to go if God made it clear that that was what he wanted him to do. And I said, Oh, okay, well as long as you're willing. That would work.

Phil Herndon 15:47

Yeah.

Stacey 15:47

So we started dating and, you know, I think in in different ways, I I wasn't thinking about sex and the things like you were, like marriage would fix it and all of that. I just had this idea that when we got married, we would just have this great ministry life. We would be in full-time Christian ministry ministry, which is what I grew up with, so felt comfortable. We, I will say we were we were physical in our dating and engagement very much and too much. And there was all the guilt, all the shame, because I had not even kissed a boy before, correct. So thinking though, that in I guess in that way, I was thinking as soon as we get married, it'll all be fine, and we won't have to feel guilty. And you know, your body doesn't just make that connection that on this day it's a sin, and on this day, after saying some words, right, very important words, but that it's all gonna be beautiful. And and nobody talked to me.

Greg 16:46

I you know nobody, nobody.

Stacey 16:49

It was just don't do it, don't be alone with a boy, don't do anything physical with the boy before you're married. And there's nothing about it being good and beautiful and playful and all all the things that it is God designed it to be. There was just none of that. And so honeymoon was not great. We will both say that. And so it just started, I think. I know for you, just kind of think about it.

Greg 17:14

Well, it was supposed to be the apex and it and it wasn't what you know, I the impossible thing I built it up to be.

Stacey 17:22

Yeah, so I think I mean, I will say I not knowing anything that he was struggling with, I didn't know anything that was going on with him. We were best friends by the time we got married, I think. So we have this great solid foundation, which I think is part of how we're still sitting here today together. But I think we had a good marriage. It just at some point along the way, I was like, is this like it? It just seems kind of seemed like roommates get along pretty well. We don't really fight that much. When we do, it can get pretty heated. But but I I just had no idea that what the struggles were. Yeah.

Phil Herndon 18:03

So Boy, and that is uh you're just you're describing, as you two well know, this is an oxymoronic way to say it, but you are describing a perfect storm for how sex addiction just becomes pervasive in a relationship. You know, good boy in terms of upbringing and Bible college, mullet notwithstanding, dancing at the concert notwithstanding, good girl, missionary kid, you know, having all these thoughts and you, Greg, having a secret life, calling card of addiction, right? Secret life, and Stacey said very much you said very matter-of factly a while ago, like, well, gosh, I didn't know what's going on. So I'm just thinking, like, man, y'all are describing how it almost always happens in this type scenario. Yeah, yeah. Variations on a theme.

Stacey 18:48

Yeah.

Phil Herndon 18:48

Yeah. So tell me, Greg, a little bit, what is it that you brought in? You talked about your thinking about things. And man, you're

Why Sex Never Fixes The Need

Phil Herndon 18:57

right. How would you like to have a dollar for every time you've heard someone say, gosh, I thought getting married would fix all this? And that's man. I have a lot of dollars. A lot. It makes sense on a logical side of things because I think, man, sex, acting out sexually, really brings satisfaction. Yeah. Well, I don't know, it's a dopamine surge and an oxytocin dump and all these things that happen in the brain. My brain is getting wired more and more and more. Increased tolerance, as you said earlier, Greg. And so I just think, oh, well, this is easy math. I think, you know, Stacey's really pretty, and I want to marry her. And so when that happens, then the math works.

Greg 19:36

Well, I think that for me it was this formula of okay, what I'm doing now is the counterfeit. And so, yeah, it's giving me something, but what I need is the real thing. And what I thought was the real thing was sex with my wife. Yeah. But sex with my wife shifted over and became a better counterfeit. Yes. Because the the real thing was actual intimacy and vulnerability and the connection that is supposed to lead to great, healthy, connected sex. But I had no framework for seeing that. Yes. And so I wasn't completely off. It's just that I had I had mislabeled the pieces of the puzzle, right? So I knew that going from a counterfeit to the real thing was what I wanted, but I had misidentified what the real thing was. And I mean, honestly, I didn't get the kind of clarity I feel like I have even on that now until probably years into recovery. You know, because it's just an ever-evolving deepening of understanding that is one of the greatest blessings and gifts and benefits of having this secret out in the light so that you can really move in a growing and healthy direction.

Phil Herndon 20:50

So you two have talked, we've talked so far about here's the story, Stacey, you brought into this marriage. Good girl, missionary kid. Greg, you brought in uh some your version of that story. Christian boy, yeah. And a good Christian boy harboring a secret. Yep. With all this kind of logic that that says, well, marrying her will all make sense. And so these two people are married. It's going, Stacey, you said a sad statement that's very common too. Like things were okay. Uh-huh. You know, we're going along. Yeah. Not terrible. Hey, we fought and it was pretty bad. But then, you know, we we did that awkward dance, and somehow it got better. We just kept going. So, what happened that that on your worst and best day?

Greg 21:32

Well, when that worst day, worst best day rolled around, my acting out behavior had

The Story Doesn't Always Come Out at Once

Greg 21:40

escalated to what we call crossing the flesh barrier several years prior. And, you know, porn wasn't doing it for me anymore, fantasy wasn't doing it for me anymore. And so I had had to escalate to anonymous sexual hookups with people I didn't even know. And there was an email that I actually sent to an acting out partner, and instead of from the dummy account that I had created, I sent it from my church email account, which used my real name. I used a fake name when I acted out. And so it was like, holy, you know what, this is like, this is out of my control now. And I was a little bit just case, sirah, like, okay, I'm either gonna get caught or I'm not. And several days passed and nothing happened. And then just through a series of events, I came to understand that like information had been taken to the people I worked underneath at the church, and it was all about to come out. And so I immediately went into addict mode. How can I control this damage? How can I keep it from being just this earth-destroying, you know, meteor? And so I decided, I did some simple math in my head and to an addict brain, it made sense. I was going to admit to the minimum I thought I had to to get the consequence, but not so much that it would devastate Stacey. And I mean, I'm like doing all these calculations. And that lasted for about six days. Was trying to continue to keep a secret and just say, I'll go to therapy. I mean, I I'll lose my job, I'll go to therapy, I'll privately apply the stuff that nobody needs to know about, you know, and it'll be fine, you know. Control the damage. That's an annoying chuckle there, Stacey.

Stacey 23:20

Yeah, that sounds like a good point.

Greg 23:22

And and a question that that came up a lot during those six days was you know, if God was going to reveal any of it. Why would he not reveal all of it? Well, that statement was first, or the question was first being asked by people who believed that I was being honest, that it was all out. But like it wasn't all out. And so eventually God just wore me down and I felt like I was dying. So six days after the first phase, the first wave of the crater came the second, and everything came out. And I think that, you know, I'm not ever perpetuating continuing to lie, but even when I'm doing things sinfully and clunky and addict-driven, I think God was even sovereign over that because I think that maybe hearing it all at once would have been too much for Stacey. And he gave her that week to begin getting support in place so that when the final bomb dropped, she had, I think, even greater capacity than those first six days. I don't know if you feel that way about it, but it was it was awful.

Stacey 24:23

Yeah.

Greg 24:24

But at the same time, it was like, okay, it's out and we know what we're dealing with now.

Stacey 24:29

I wouldn't want to say that like, yes, I agree with that, in the sense that that's the way people should do it who are listening. Because that's not the way to do it. But I do remember when the week later that it everything was out, I told him, well, before you really didn't say anything, it was a look. Like, okay, because I was asking specific questions. And I said, You have already devastated me. We we've lost everything in my brain. It was every, you know, the job. And it's not gonna be that much worse if you just admit this. We cannot move forward, we can't heal something to that effect if you're not telling the truth. So I knew everything was out. And I didn't feel at least in that moment, like way worse. It was almost like okay.

Greg 25:21

Your fall apart came later. Yeah.

Stacey 25:24

And honestly, I did fall apart later and get her real mad. I found all the cuss words. I had found some probably that first week, but I feel like I got in touch with a lot of them. But had my our therapist, I called her. It was 10 o'clock at night, bless her heart. I called her because this was unfolding and asked her to like what do we do next? So we you know go see her, but had to get blood work done because and I'm like that. Never crossed my mind, even when I had the all the information.

Greg 25:52

Or mine either. And then it just all hit, and it's like, my God, what have I done? Yeah, that's just really, really bad.

Stacey 25:58

Yeah, so that felt honestly worse. Just that reality. Like I I don't eat I I can't, I don't know. That's that's what I'm like was in my brain. Like, I couldn't even form a sentence. Like missionary kid, Bible college, full-time Christian ministry. We have three kids, 14, 10, and 7. I don't even know how we got here, you know. But it was awful. People don't like it when I say this, I don't think. But like for me too, I know I would never want my life to change and me to be healing in a in a different way because of this, but it was a turning point for me as well. Because I didn't have this secret addiction that I was hiding. But I told Greg over the years, like, I have so many friends at church and I'm so lonely. Because I don't think I was have I was I was just exhausting myself to do things for people so that they would like me. Yeah. Being the good one, continuing that that I had done my whole life. And I was kind of in a way miserable, but I didn't have words for it. I didn't know that that's what was happening. And so I think this just God, like you said, it was a kindness and said, This isn't gonna continue this way anymore. We're gonna, you know, do something here. So I had a moment though in the in me, I think the day that it blew up of just like I was

Betrayal Trauma And The Aftershocks

Stacey 27:24

sitting by myself in an office, some the pastors were talking to him, and I'm like, God, either everything I've learned from becoming a Christian at five years old is not true. Because I never thought this would be the story that I would get. This is not what I think I heard growing up. Or somehow, somehow, you you have a plan. And I didn't know anything other than keep following Jesus. So I don't know what that was gonna look like, but I was just like, okay, see what you have. And it was like, I say this all the time. It was, I felt almost like a physical, like you put a blanket around me and it's like you're gonna be okay. I didn't know if that meant we would be okay, but like this is my this has been my greatest fear since we met. Yeah, is that he would do something. And he never carried himself in a way that would make me think that he would do this. It wasn't even that. It was just, I think my insecurities and just all kinds of things that I this was my biggest fear. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, it's happened. And somehow I'm still breathing. Right. And I still like him, but I'm real mad.

Phil Herndon 28:33

Yeah, Stacey, there's a I I've said it before and I've had people come back and say it to me. I've told people who are in your spot, really, Greg, and yours too, on the on D-Day. I've said, Hey, I just want you to do one thing, just breathe. Just take the next breath. And you you just literally sat and said, Hey, I just intuitively knew at this point I'm just gonna take the next breath.

Stacey 28:57

Yeah.

Phil Herndon 28:57

Then the next one. That's so you're just describing such trauma. So she's in one room breathing, about all she can manage at the time. I'm in another room lying.

Stacey 29:08

Lying, because this is still, yes.

Phil Herndon 29:10

So pick up the story.

Greg 29:11

What's happening in the other room, Greg? I mean, the other room is I am I am looking at two of the people that I worked with, that I reported to, and they are giving me every opportunity. They're saying, Is there more? Like, this is the time, let's just get it all out. And in my brain, I'm thinking, okay, if it's up and to the left, does that mean you're lying or telling the truth? Like, where do my eyes need to be? Like full-on self-protection. Wow. And like I've committed to this path forward. I'm gonna say no. Like, if this is what I had done and this is what they knew about, this is what I was gonna admit to. And that was the plan. And I was sticking to the plan. And I don't think they believed me, but they couldn't prove anything differently. And so I'm like, I'm gonna lose my job anyway. So let's just minimize the damage. Little side note: people who have struggled with an addiction were are probably gonna understand this. It's a little harder to understand if you haven't been directly touched by addiction, but all of the things I was doing, cheating on my wife, bringing this, you know, this relationship with pornography masturbation into my marriage that escalated way beyond that. At no point did I not love my wife.

Phil Herndon 30:25

Yeah.

Greg 30:26

I and at no point did I want to hurt my wife. Yeah. And really at no point did I believe in my heart that anything wrong with her was driving what I was doing. It was this compartmentalized thing. I was doing this horrible, painful, deceitful betrayal, and I didn't want her to know because of how much it would hurt her. It's insanity. You know, we we say addiction is insanity.

Stacey 30:50

I wasn't real gracious when he tried to explain that to me early on.

Greg 30:54

I probably wasn't the one to explain it.

Phil Herndon 30:56

Thank you, honey. That that makes all the sense in the world. Okay, we're good.

Greg 30:59

Yeah. And so, you know, after, you know, after everything else came out, you know, yeah, I I I was lying still. And it, you know, there a lot of relationships were broken because of what I had done. And then, you know, there was some continuing broke brokenness subsequent to that because of decisions that some other people in the process made that came out of their broken trust of me. And it was very hurtful. And, you know, I had served them up this steaming pile and they didn't know what to do with it. Because in 2009, almost no church knew what to do with sexual addiction, much less when one of your pastors is the one who has it. And so it was just a mess. But after that, well, in the midst of it, we were finding a lot of clarity because we got with a wonderful therapist who helped us understand that we that I wasn't a freak, that she didn't have some broken picker, you know, there was a lot more you know complex than that. But the main thing is there's hope. This all makes sense. Yeah. When you look at your backstory and the things that the beliefs that developed out of that, all this makes sense. And there's so much hope in that. And so, in the midst of our church life falling apart and a lot of relationships going away, there were other relationships that God was bringing into our lives, mostly with people who had walked through the same thing that we were walking through. And so now there's this big unfolding piece called community. And it has been the greatest gift, really, that God has given us through all of this. I don't think that our marriage could be where it is now without our community. Yeah, man. And so, yeah, we found people who had walked through it who said, Yeah, this is what it was like when it happened to me. I'm like, wow, like you sound just as screwed up as I am, which is really strangely comforting. Yes. And we found I found a meeting that I could go to. There really weren't very many meetings for partners, but one kind of formed while we were walking through it, and then over the years, you know, turned into what we're doing now. That's a very, you know, truncated version of it. But us finding out that having people to walk alongside while we're having this discovery and this healing and this growing, it's it's absolutely irreplaceable. Yes.

Phil Herndon 33:24

Yes, that's beautiful, guys. I want you to, if you would, both of you, as we kind of start wrapping up a little bit here, Greg, you said something so important, how addiction

Hope, Process, And Hard Truths

Phil Herndon 33:35

thrives in isolation and denial and avoidance and minimization, lying, and all the things we've we've talked about today. But you said the word hope. And so we often, clinically speaking, will line this up as there's the problem, there's the solution, and there's hope. And so if you two would just as take as long as you would like, both of you, Greg and Stacey, what would you say to people listening? And sadly, and i i if couples are in this situation, I'm glad they're listening to this. And so for those, those couples out there who are somewhere along the continuum of where you two have been, maybe they're back in 2000, was it nine, two thousand back in two thousand nine, or maybe they're currently where you are. What would you want to share with with couples who are walking where y'all have walked?

Stacey 34:23

Well, I recently or I am currently talking with several women. One specifically is a relapse situation, and one is like found just heard full disclosure. So much more than than she had any idea. And I was asked, can he ever tell the truth? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how we can get through this. And can I ever get to where I don't want to just send him packing, you know? And I I mean the answer is yes, you can, he can learn to tell the truth, and yes, you can get to a point where you are reconciled. But it takes two people committed to the process. We call it the P word in the partner side of the of the street. We don't like the process, it takes too long, we want to just be done and we don't want to be triggered or what all the stuff that comes with it. But I think I think, yeah, knowing that you say it all the time, Greg, it took this many years to get to this place. Yeah, you are not gonna crawl out of this in a couple months. And so when our therapist said three to five, I said, How long is this gonna take? Because I'm thinking of him to get fixed, you know. She's like, three to five years. And I think I cussed. Like, what the actual are you talking about? Like, pretty sure you did, Stacey. Yeah, I'm sure I did. But it is, it's not three to five years of the day one. It's not like that. It's a roller coaster. And so I just I say, you know, it's a long process, but there's healing. Whether you stay married or not, you can. I I have one friend in particular walked with her and she it ended in divorce, and she is living a beautiful, healed, also sad at what how things went, but she's just beautiful and loves Jesus. And I just I just love that. I hate that that the relationship went the way it went, but like seeing God heal her in the midst. I mean, not healed, you know, 100% as we won't be until we see Jesus. But but yeah, I don't did I answer the question?

Phil Herndon 36:45

You did. It you're beautifully saying it, Stacey. It's like, you know, the the neuroscience people call it limbic revision. It just takes a while for the filter to change. And it's even there's wisdom in now. You and I are gonna talk later in in another episode about this more, Stacey, but it just takes time for the the filter. Not only did it grow slowly, Greg, like you say, over time, but it also changes again over time. And I think that's such an important thing on on both quote sides of this, but certainly as the partner side, I think that's one of the most important things that could that anyone could say or or know. Like it's gonna vacillate, and I'm you're gonna have cussing days and rejoicing days. That's right.

Greg 37:29

You know, and a lot of times those are the same days.

Phil Herndon 37:31

So same day, same hour, same minutes. So I just think that's very important. I'm so glad you kind of double-clicked on that, people.

Stacey 37:37

Yeah.

Greg 37:38

You know, when you ask about the question about hope, the thought that popped into my head, and I want to just I I haven't developed it, but this is what I want to talk about. I think that for hope to be able to stay for a recovering person, it really can't be tied to a particular outcome. Yeah. Like hope that my marriage will survive, well, that's contingent. Like the in that saying, if my marriage doesn't survive, then I'm done.

Phil Herndon 38:08

Yeah.

Greg 38:08

It's one thing to want your marriage to survive, to want it to become the marriage that you always knew it could be. And that is a beautiful desire. But if it's the only outcome in which I can be okay, then it can easily become an idol. And and and what I'm unintentionally communicating is that I don't believe that there's a power greater than myself who can restore me to sanity, and that I am willing to give you know my will and my life over to his care because I don't really trust him to be enough. Yeah. Now that sounds harsh as I'm saying it. Don't intend for it to sound harsh because of course we feel that way. You bet. We have been living, and I say we because I'm a recovering addict, we have been living in such a way for so long to where if it is to be, it's up to me. I live like an orphan and I've got to meet my own needs. And I'll say that God can be trusted, but I don't function that way. Yes. Because I've learned how to not I I can't take the chance of waiting on what that would look like. Because what if it's what if it's bad? And so the hope that even if I don't get the thing that I that I want, that I can be okay.

Phil Herndon 39:24

Yeah.

Greg 39:25

That it's better that this is out than before it was out. And and sometimes I just have to say to people who are kind of in the square one spot, it's okay if you don't trust me, but it's good that it's out. Yeah. You know, because the way you were living was unsustainable. And now there's hope that things can be different. And sometimes it's got to start with that little nugget. What if it was possible that life could get better?

Stacey 39:54

Yeah.

Greg 39:55

You know, you have to believe that it could before you believe that it will. You know, like we I was just quoting a couple of the 12 steps. And, you know, step one is that my life is unmanageable. What I've been trying isn't working. Step two is that I came to believe that there is a power greater than me. I call him Jesus, who can restore me to sanity. And step three is making a decision to turn my will and my life over to his care. And there's an old AA saying about step two is first you come, just show up. Then you come to, which is the realization, and then you come to believe. And so, like, if all they can have in terms of hope is if there's a chance that life could be better than it has been, is it worth walking down that road? And take that first step. And like, thank God you took that first step. Now take the next step.

Stacey 40:44

Yes.

Greg 40:45

So things can be better. God doesn't want you to live like this. You were created not just to have eternal life so that when you die in this miserable, addictive existence, at least you get to go to heaven. Like we were meant to have eternal life, but we were also meant to have abundant life. And that's the part that so many of us are missing because of the strategies and because of the lies that we believe. So, as far as a hopeful message, what if it could be different? Yes. And then if they take that first step, I think they start to realize often that it can be. And then they start to realize it.

Phil Herndon 41:17

Yes. That's a great word. Thank you for that, both of you. So as God would have it, you're talking about people in a free fall, like, oh no, now what? And contingency planning, and it's all up to me, and those other things. And and then what you're asking people and challenging people to do is to just take the step to come so they can come to and come to believe. And God has granted the two of you a ministry that catches people that do that. So, how's the best way for folks to get in touch with y'all?

Greg 41:47

Yeah. Awakenrecovery.com. Okay. And if you are a man who struggles with unwanted or addictive sexual behavior,

Finding Community And Getting Help

Greg 41:56

a woman who is in a relationship with one of these men, or even a woman who struggles because that is a gap that's rapidly closing. I'll just be honest, that has been the hardest community for us to develop because a lot of women have such deeper levels of shame with having what they still believe is a man's problem that they don't really reach out. But we we actually have some help, but we also have some places that we can refer people to that are doing that more effectively than we are. Awakenrecovery.com. We have uh recovery meetings every week, multiple meetings for men. We have a virtual meeting for women who for partners who are no matter where you live, you can be a part of that. Three weekly virtual meetings for men. And so, yeah, you can find out about how you can get that community piece going. But we also offer intensives and workshops, as I know that Tin Man does as well, for people to get some of these dots connected. We'll refer people to therapists that can help therapists, coaches, counselors that can help them in this. And then we have a really soft spot for walking alongside ministry leaders because if I hear one thing most consistently from church leaders, it is nobody taught me how to do this in seminary or Bible college. And so because I had a foot in both worlds as an addict and as a pastor, like I can help people understand when somebody shows up in your office and they're presenting this way, all you know is what they're letting you see. There's so much more going on under the surface. And so we do cohort groups for ministry leaders who want to have a deeper understanding so that they're actually helping more and not inadvertently hurting in situations that are already really bad. So no matter if you're a person who needs that kind of community and help yourself, or if you're in a helping profession and you just want to get better at it by rubbing shoulders with people who do similar work to you, awakenrecovery.com is a good way to find out.

Phil Herndon 43:55

That's fantastic, man. Love having you as friends, love having you as guests. Thanks for coming today.

Stacey 44:01

Thank you.

Phil Herndon 44:02

This has been great, Phil. Enjoyed the time very much.