72 | Stacey Oliver: Who's Asking the Questions Now? part 1

Recently, Stacey and Greg were honored to appear as guests on Return to Heart, the podcast of Tin Man Ministries. We're posting these episodes here, with the microphones turned around, with the title "Who's Asking the Questions Now?" Next week will feature a conversation with both Stacey and Greg, and the week after another one with Greg.

In this episode Tin Man's clinical director Phil Herndon sat down with Stacey Oliver to discuss betrayal trauma, recovery after sexual addiction, attachment wounds, codependency, and the long road toward healing.

Drawing from her own story, Stacey shared what it felt like to discover hidden betrayal, why so many partners ignore their "gut," and how healing often begins by finding safe people who understand your pain.

Whether you're navigating betrayal yourself, supporting someone who is, or trying to understand how trauma impacts relationships, this conversation offers hope, wisdom, and practical insight. 

Awaken offers the Roots Retreat Women's Workshop as a help for women navigating the healing process after sexual betrayal. See link below for more information.

Thank you to Tin Man Ministries for their permission to rebroadcast the episode here on What We Really Want!

#staceyoliver #staceyandgregoliver #awaken #awakenrecovery #philherndon #tinmanministries #returntoheartpodcast #betrayaltrauma #sexualbetrayal #healing #recovery #therapy #connection #rootsretreat #rootsretreatwomensworkshop

Tin Man Ministries website
Return to Heart podcast (Apple Podcasts)
Return to Heart podcast (Spotify)

Transcript

Why We’re Sharing These Interviews

Stacey 0:00

Every one of us who's in this spot needs somebody to talk to. Timing of going to a group or therapy or an intensive or workshop or whatever it is, that can differ from woman to woman. But I think you have to talk to somebody.

Announcer 0:15

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:27

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. The next three weeks are going to be a little bit of a departure from what we normally do. This week, next week, and the week after, we have a three-part episode called Who's Asking the Questions Now? Stacey and I recently got to appear as guests on Ten Man Ministries podcast Return to Heart. And Phil Herndon, their clinical director, actually interviewed us about the work that we do and our stories. And we wanted to share the audio from those conversations with you here on what we really want. So this week, episode 72 is Who's Asking the Questions Now Part One? And that's going to be Phil's conversation with Stacey. She gets into her experience meeting and marrying me in Bible college, and then going through the discovery that I had been sexually betraying her and what that was like. That's going to be part one that you're about to hear now. Next week, episode 73, Who's Asking the Questions Now part two, is going to be a conversation that all three of us had. And then the following week, number 74, it's going to be Phil's conversation with me. Phil is such a good question asker, and I've loved getting to become friends with him over the years. It's just been so good to deepen that friendship. We passionately believe in the work that we're both called to do. It's such similar work and we are philosophically aligned. We we just really have the same desires to be available to help people live the lives that they were created to live. So we hope that by replaying these conversations, it's going to give you some things to think about. If our stories connect to your story in a way that makes you want to reach out, please do so. Awakenrecovery.com. Just reach out to us that way. We would love to hear from you. So without further ado, here is episode 72.

Stacey’s Role with Awaken

Greg 2:15

It's called Who's Asking the Questions Now? Part one. Our guest, it's Stacey Oliver, being interviewed by Phil Herndon. And that conversation starts right now.

Phil Herndon 2:25

Today I have my friend Stacey Oliver here. And uh she and her husband Greg, dear friends of mine, they run a ministry called Awaken Recovery. And we'll talk more about that at the end of our time. But it is a joy to have you here today, Stacey and Greg, sitting back in the wings back there. So we're just gonna have a conversation. Tell a little bit about uh whatever whatever you want to tell about your your role, particularly at Awaken, but just as Stacey as as a helper.

Stacey 2:52

Okay. So this is not something I would have, you know, I had set out to do, be women's director at a sex addiction and recovery ministry.

Phil Herndon 3:02

Wasn't on your list growing up, so I really hope I could do that.

Stacey 3:05

No. But yeah, I basically, you know, women reach out, usually go through our website, fill out a form and want support, and I'll respond to those, send an email, tell them about our meetings. And if they come, we have an in-person meeting in Birmingham. And so if they come to that meeting, I'll meet them. Sometimes I'll offer a conversation or if they want to talk and we'll do that. If they're local, we'll meet up and talk. It's it's real, sorry, it's real personal. You know, my my part is just meeting them where they are and usually leading with what I've walked through to give them, you know, a picture of you know what's gone on and what I've come from. And I I think it helps them understand. Like I say a lot of things that were my experience, and then they are sitting there. That's exactly what I feel like. And we could have totally different upbringings, personalities, but this experience of being betrayed by your person, there's so much that every up every one of us feels. Yeah. And so every time I share, I feel so so Greg is very polished, like what he can speak in front of people, he's you know, singing and all the things. And I am just not, I'm an introvert. I don't want to be out in the limelight at all. I want him to talk about just how great I am sometimes.

Phil Herndon 4:30

Of course.

Stacey 4:31

I don't want to have to get up and do the talking. But so I I think that this is just nothing, or I don't know how this is gonna help her, or or whatever. And then they do say, like, oh my gosh, you know, I just haven't heard anybody say the things that you've said, and it's exactly how I feel and all of that. And I just am reminded every time that God uses things in ways that we just don't expect. And so just in my sharing, you know, my anger, how I cussed, and was so angry because I was, you know, a good Christian girl, and you don't do you don't behave in these ways. It is a freeing thing for a lot of them because they didn't they feel it, but they don't think they can express it.

Phil Herndon 5:16

Yeah.

Stacey 5:17

So that's that's a lot of of what I do. And in our in-person meeting, we have facilitators who facilitate the meetings and take turns. So I I when we started Awaken, I was doing the meeting every week and started a virtual meeting. I think it was in COVID we started a virtual meeting and then we just kept it going. And I was leading that one as well, and it was too much. I just couldn't do all that myself. And so over the years have trained facilitators, and so there's a team of us that you know do that every week and in the meetings a lot of times. My one of my favorite things, and I think Greg has said this too. I'm pointing back here because he's back here, is that he some people will hear his name or maybe meet him and go, Oh, I think you emailed me. Like they don't even know he's "Awaken Greg," or ladies don't know I'm "Awaken Stacey." And I just love that. I I I just I love the I think it's because of the community and the the ways the ladies who have been there a while and are facilitating, they like own it. And so it's beautiful to be a part of that. And we always joke about wishing we'd met at a book club and not in this kind of meeting. But we all, you know, are thankful to have each other.

The Shock Of Betrayal At Home

Phil Herndon 6:30

You said something powerful uh a few sentences ago. You said that women partners show up having been betrayed by their person. And uh that's really it's a common sentence, but it's super powerful and painful. And when you just break that sentence apart, like you work with people and you are a person who was betrayed by your person, and even that word of possession, not in an unhealthy way, but like, no, this is my person. And that person, unbeknownst to me, went behind my back and acted out in a way that was really devastating. So if you know you and Greg shared your your together, your couple story earlier with us, but if you would just start kind of on the you you mentioned, and man, it's so evident that your your strength is just showing up as Stacey with women and saying, Here's here's my experience, strength and hope, as we say in prostate recovery.

Stacey 7:28

Yeah.

Phil Herndon 7:28

So uh tell me when you as as far as you would like to go or need to go, just as Stacey, you're married, you young lady marries this young man named Greg, and then the story unfolded to where you ended up experiencing the betrayal by your person. And so, what would you want listeners and viewers to to know about you in the role as the partner?

Stacey 7:53

Yeah. We were 20 and 21 when we got married, so like none of our kids got married, or we have one that's married. She did not get married at 20. And I just it's just like we were babies, and we didn't think we were babies, we thought we were so mature, but I was so, you know, all the attachment language, insecure attachment, or you know, avoidant, all of that. I had no words, I had no idea, but an insecure attachment to a T. And so he's very confident, like I've said, and just I felt very safe with him, and he can have answers to things. And I think he made up a lot of beep, beep, beep. He just made up stuff, but it was it made sense to me. And so, you know, he can fix things, and I'm like having this struggle. And I I would probably pray a quick prayer, but then I want to go be with Greg because he could talk it out or whatever. And so I put way too much into that. Like I relied on him for everything, and I know he felt that. And and I knew over the years before all this blew up that that I was he was an idol, but and God was convicting me of that, but like push it back, push it back because it was terrifying to think if I didn't do that, what what what would I do? And so, you know, having kids and church ministry and all that, we were busy, and you can push that back. When this all blew up, it's like my idol fell in the worst way, my biggest fear. And so now what? And so initially, what the good Stacey did was try to prove to the world that I still love him, that we still are that good couple. We have the good couple reputation. Like, and one of the things I told him right away when he was telling me the initial part that he'd been involved in all these years was you've ruined our reputation. And I can just hear people feeling sorry for me, and can you believe Greg Oliver? And it made me so mad. Because I did that to people when we found out, right? And now I'm in that place, and it just made me so angry. But I thought, well, you've thrown this all in the crater, but let's see if we can fix that. And so, like, I think it was week one. I went on Facebook. I love my husband, you know, all caps. Like, what is wrong with you? You know, like I I guess I had to just show people that you think he's whatever you think now that he's done this, but I still think he's amazing. And then I'd go, you know, cuss him out or whatever.

Phil Herndon 10:37

Cause and both are true. Both are true. Great man, and he needs a cousin.

Stacey 10:42

Yes, exactly. So that was, I think a big strategy of mine was just, yeah, I and I it it wasn't methodical and thought out. I mean, I was in trauma and doing what I knew to do was just like be good and helpful if I could. There was another part though that was super, I think, from God that I felt very strong. And he was not the strong spiritual one. And it didn't feel good in a in an unhealthy way. I I feel like I I don't know, that God was just giving me moments of strength to be encouraging to him or whatever. And then like I said, I would vacillate, you know, and it would go to calling him many swear words. But what was the original question after all of that? What am I answering the question?

Phil Herndon 11:36

Well, you you did answer, and I want to go back to something.

Denial And The “Am I Crazy” Spiral

Phil Herndon 11:39

You even made a hand motion. You said I just put that away. I just put that away. I was just thinking when you said that how many partners, most of them have been women, but some men. Yeah. And we had mentioned earlier that gap sadly is closing. We've mentioned before that more and more women are showing up, having been on the betrayer side. But when you made that motion, I've seen it for years and years, and that's that's a motion of denial. We say you put it away in the four rules of denial, as we say, are don't see, don't say, don't feel, don't need. Yeah. I'm just thinking about this young 20-year-old girl, you know, Bible college, missionary kid, good girl, as you've said, showing up with this guy. He's handsome and he's charismatic and he's fun, and he's got the semi-mullet still in Bible college. You know, he's just he's just the guy. And sings, so pretty. He sings, sings, or worshiping. Worship leader to be, saying it's your like this is this is great. This is things in magazines back back when there were magazines. You know, he turned real pages. Magazines, but I'm just thinking, like, I'm just thinking about this 20-year-old young lady, and she's just she she's not seeing what she's really seeing inside. She's dare not saying this idolatry, as you called it. Yeah. And she's not gonna have feelings about it, and she's for sure not gonna have needs and reach out to him and to other people to go, I want to look a little closer at what's going on here. So I just I'm just struck by how you are kind of intuitively talking about the place of denial in the early days, not seeing what you're seeing.

Stacey 13:12

Absolutely. And there were I I didn't know anything that he was struggling with, but I mean, there were times that something would just feel I don't even know if it had any, I don't think it had anything to do with uh anything sexual, but like just something felt off. Or like I like I said, when we were talking all together, like, is this all that marriage is well into our marriage? Like it just felt kind of flat. And I knew when we argued it it was not good. Like for him being a worship pastor, I'm thinking that's not what a worship pastor is supposed to look like when they're mad or whatever. And then I'm screaming, I'm a I'm a screamer. And I only had until recovery, I only had like two swear words because you know I wouldn't cuss before, but I would call him a name because I felt like in a corner and I didn't have words. He's very much a wordsmith. And if I didn't say the exact word, he'd be like, I didn't say that. It could be a like a very similar word, but I didn't use the exact word and he would correct it, and that would just send me off the edge. Like I was crazy, and I felt that I felt crazy. I felt now looking back, now learning the child consciousness and all that, I felt like a child. And so I it just yeah, I I knew there were things that were not right, but had just no idea who I would even talk to about it because he's the worship pastor and why I can't and nobody talks about problems like these kind of problems. You just share a lot of hard times with your kids or you know, just rated G things. And so I I never yeah, I never did anything about it, just pushed it back, like you said. And I think that I just lost my train of thought. I don't know. Let's just go somewhere else.

Phil Herndon 16:35

We're just talking about the the mental calisthenics around how I love him and I think he's he's the one, and so I'm gonna make sure we don't even know we're doing it. Yeah that the filter I look through is is saturated with I'm not gonna see what I see, I'm not gonna say what I see, I'm not gonna have feelings about it, I'm not gonna reach out with with needs. That seems to be kind of a whether you're the good girl on the mission field or or whatever your background is, whatever your story is you bring into a relationship, that seems to be a real commonality. Like I'm just gonna either assume that's gonna get better or that kind of thing. And so in term in even in your own life and in women that you know that are on the betrayed side of this, the word betrayal trauma is common these days. What do you see and what would you say to those, those women and men who are on the betrayed side of things? Like what are some, I guess uh sterile as it sounds, what are some best practices to be able to deal with with getting that news or finding that out?

Stacey 17:39

Yeah. The best thing that I tell people is that is actually there's no workbook. There's no one way to do it. We're all different. But there are obviously, yeah, some things that could could be helpful. You know, people ask me if you could go back and change anything, do something different. I hate the question because I can't. But in thinking about people who may be in a situation where they don't know they they haven't had the bombshell, but they do feel some things like I was talking about. I think if I could go back, and what I would say to women in that place is ask questions. They'll probably lie. If they're in addiction, they're gonna lie. But then, like, if you don't feel settled, find somebody to talk to, you know. And now there's so many more resources, you know, get a counselor. I know lots of times when we would fight pre-all this coming out, I would say, we need to go talk to our pastor, we need help. And he's and he would throw me off, you know, say things to make me feel crazy, like, oh, here we go, we need counseling. And I would be like, Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, that's ridiculous. And and then just, you know, go on our way. But I think listening to your gut, your gut is not always gonna be right, but I think paying

What Actually Helps After Disclosure

Stacey 18:52

attention to it and asking questions is important. I may have feelings of fear today that something's going on with Greg and I can talk to him about it. And then it doesn't mean that something was going on with Greg, but I for some reason something was off in my system, and so I I listen to it, I asked my questions, and then I move on. So I think, yeah, listening to and getting help, talking to somebody, if you found out all this is going has been going on, I think knowing it is gonna be longer than you want it to be. It's okay if you feel like you make some progress and then you have a day where you can't get out of bed, you're not crazy. I mean, I didn't understand all of that in the beginning. I I felt like if I was up and maybe had a conversation with somebody for 30 minutes, I felt like I needed a nap. And I'm like, what is wrong with me? This is this is an emotional thing. Why am I so physically inept? And my therapist was like, You're in the ICU. And it's like, if you've had surgery or you know, you're and you get up and do too much, you gotta have a rest. And it takes its toll on you when it's this kind of betrayal. And so I think I fought talking to anybody else about it, talking to a lady, I like was very adamant. I am not talking to women whose husbands are sex addicts. I'm not, no, you know, like it was this just disgusting thing, but it was in the spot that I was in. I'm like, I am not calling her. There's one person she should that our therapist said I should call. And I'm like, nope. And so after about three or four months, I don't know how long it was, I was like, all right, this is not working. Whatever, I'll call her. And I did, and she pulled out a codependent book, and I was like, what is this garbage? Like this word, I don't even know what it is, but it's like Alcoholics Anonymous or something, what made me think of. And so we started going through it, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, and I know people listening might just stop when they hear the codependent word. Well, it's a word for anything that I look to when life's not working, and I look to this to make it work. It's really not a we all do it, everybody does it. So it was just like for me in ministry saying yes anytime somebody asks me to do something, unless I had a commitment on the calendar, I would not say no.

Phil Herndon 21:20

Yeah.

Stacey 21:21

And then realizing that I actually don't have to say yes all the time. I can say no. Like even if I feel like I just need to be home, that's a reason to say no. And so all of that to say, I think every one of us who's in this spot needs somebody to talk to.

Phil Herndon 21:39

Amen.

Stacey 21:39

The timing of going to a group or you know, therapy or an intensive or workshop or whatever it is, that can differ from woman to woman. But I think you have to tell talk to somebody. There are women in our community who really only the people in the group know anything. Their family doesn't know anything, the kids don't know anything. And I know there's wisdom in telling and who to tell and what you tell. We told our kids initially because Greg lost his job and we had to say something because we wouldn't be at the church. And but it was age appropriate. And over the years, they're all grown now. We've you know told them more, gave them gave them permission to ask questions or whatever. But I just don't I don't believe we can do this without help, without support.

Phil Herndon 22:26

So let's um let's start toward the ending with kind of going to the beginning a little bit. You know, it it this is a an amoral statement. Our stories influence how we live. Good, bad, indifferent. You know, so uh a lot of people hear, you know, hey, what's your story? How did your story influence where you ended up? And they they equate that with who am I blaming for it? So obviously you've done a ton of this work, as have I. So we're not not asking this question about, hey, hey, Stacey, whose fault is it? You ended up with a guy like Greg. And at the same time, like where we come from really does influence the filter we look through. So if you would just kind of start looking, looking to end by going to the beginning, how as you look back, how did your story influence or inform the filter you looked through that you you ended up where you ended up with with him?

Stacey 23:22

Yeah. I think, you know, honestly, the insecure attachment. From a very young age, started a pattern of me looking to there weren't that many people as I grew up, but there was always somebody, like a sister figure a few years ahead of me, more confident, kind of things I wish I could be like that I would just get close to and kind of be in their shadow. And that was enough for me. Like it just as long as I'm attached to somebody who can do all the things that I feel like I can't do, I that's okay. And that is a pattern that I think played out until I met Greg, and then he fit the bill.

Attachment Patterns That Shape Relationships

Phil Herndon 24:04

Yes.

Stacey 24:05

He fit that, you know, perfectly. And I, of course, I really liked him. I really loved him. I really wanted to be in relationship with him. But I think even just getting to know him, it just felt like, ooh, this is my person now.

Phil Herndon 24:20

This this works. You are really touching on something so important. They're called attractor neurons. And you beautifully said that, like, yeah, I was kind of always not good, not bad. The fact is that little Stacey was always kind of in someone's wake. Yep. And those attractor neurons formed, and Stacey found someone's wake to be in and had no idea she was doing it.

Stacey 24:41

Yeah. Yep, exactly.

Phil Herndon 24:43

That's a great example of how that works. So you found someone whose wake you would fit in, and it felt like, yeah, this is this is Tuesday. This is what I do on Tuesday. So that's a super insightful to know that. Like, yeah, this girl grew up, great family, missionary, mission field, et cetera, Bible college girl. And in my story, the filter I looked through, I didn't even know I was looking for someone that left a big wake. And this extroverted performer, worship guy, charismatic, nice looking guy, like, yes, there's a great wake.

Stacey 25:20

Yep.

Phil Herndon 25:20

And fell right into it. And so that hooks in so I say beautifully, hooks in so hand in glove with putting all of that away. Yeah. That denial piece around all that. Exactly.

Stacey 25:31

Well, and it wasn't, it's not a some women, when I talk about that, they get they don't like it because it sounds like they are at fault for being drawn to this person who turns out to be a sex addict. And it's not that at all. It's just, it was so helpful for me to understand. And I didn't realize I had trauma. I went to the mission field at nine. How do I think that a nine-year-old going to a third world country wouldn't have some trauma? I didn't, it was just hard.

Phil Herndon 26:00

Yeah. It was just not trauma.

Stacey 26:01

It was just hard. And being a missionary, it's just part of being a missionary. It's what you do. You're serving the Lord. And this is your parents are serving the Lord, you know. And so, but to understand like all of these things did shape who I was and the strategies that I put into place to make me feel safe. And so it was, yeah, like you said, it wasn't about blaming or I'm at fault. It's like I don't want to keep doing that. You know, I still struggle with that to I when he packs a suitcase to leave town. I don't, I just feel ugly in my body, I don't like him being out of town. But I'm okay when he's out of town, you know, now and super important distinction. Those are the kinds of things that like for me, uh after we got through, I wasn't gonna really think a whole lot about things like that that I could work on in the early stages. But once we got through some of that, it was like, I don't like how I feel when I am like this. So I had, you know, lots of work to do. And then we did an intensive a couple years ago that even just, and we were in a good place. We just had, you know, just still some more work that I think we needed to tap into. And it was honestly, we both said life changing, even I think we were 15 years into recovery when we did it, and just even more understanding of me and how I show up and he and you know, his upbringing, how he shows up, yes, and more understanding each other more.

Phil Herndon 27:31

Yes.

Stacey 27:32

Um, so yeah, it's not a it's not a negative as in like broken because I picked a broken sex addict, but yeah, I'm broke. I I yes, I have experiences that informed why or you know, influenced why I chose what I chose. But I for me, you know, not everybody that goes through this ends up in a healthier relationship than they had before. I'm very grateful for that. But I do believe that each person, even if Greg and I hadn't walked through this together and, you know, had a restored marriage, that I hope that I would have still done the work to be a more confident person.

Phil Herndon 28:12

Yes.

Stacey 28:12

So, and a couple of friends who were at our church before that where he got fired, who knew me pretty well and then kind of followed me a little bit, stayed in touch through the years of me being in recovery, have commented specifically on how I was always like attached to his hip. And they see me very different now. Oh boy. And that and that is an observation of them seeing me really just in talking to me. They didn't see us really in action. So that was a huge, I was like, thank you for saying that because that feels really good to be at that place.

Phil Herndon 28:49

Great evidence of how God has set up there's a Greg, there's a Stacey, there's a marriage. Yeah, and it's that's so important. Stacey, that's super helpful. Hope it's been helpful for a listener who's been on the betrayed end of those things, and you just distilled it down so beautifully. Like, my story is my story, and it really informed how I viewed the world. Yeah. And then a person came that fit that attraction model, and off we went, and then you how you I hope people heard you say, like, man, it is a the ship lists and dips and pitches, and then the pitches and dips get less and less, and it's a it's a whole process, and how impressive that 15 years in recovery is like, hey, there's there's more we can have. So thank you for all of that. Awakenrecovery.com. If you're on either end of unwanted sexual behavior, really encourage you to contact uh Greg and Stacey down at Awaken in Birmingham, and we are proud ministry partners uh with awaken at tinman.org where you can reach us. And so we we these two organizations exist to help people who are in peril, and this territory is some of the most perilous that people can have. So, Stacey, thank you for coming. Thanks for having me.

Stacey 30:02

Thank you for having me.