69 | Jason Gray: A Conversation Worth Staying For

Conversations that don't feel rushed can feel pretty rare, but they're special when they happen. That's what it was like talking to our new friend, singer/songwriter Jason Gray. 

Jason has been around Christian music for a long time, writing and releasing music that connects deeply with the heart. He's a man who has been through a lot of pain in his life, including parental abandonment, divorce, a speech handicap, and an adult child with a life-threatening illness.

Throughout all that, Jason has channeled his pain, his anger, his curiosity, and his hope into his music (you'll hear clips of several songs as you listen). This is, for sure, a conversation worth staying for...all the way to the end.

Song clips in this episode:
(2:44) Death Without a Funeral
(11:55) Remind Me Who I Am
(13:26) Why You Brought Me Here
(29:07) Worth Staying For
(43:23) Honesty

#jasongray #jasongraymusic #singer #songwriter #singersongwriter #pain #suffering #connection #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation #healing

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Transcript

A Conversation Worth Staying For

Jason Gray 0:00

It wasn't the songs I sang. It wasn't the stories I shared. It was just the fact that I was I was broken and I got up there and I did it anyway. That's what ministered to people. That's what accomplished something, you know. And that was the beginning of me understanding that God wanted to use me, not in spite of my weaknesses, but because of them.

Announcer 0:20

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Talking about Jason (with Andy Gullahorn)

Greg 0:33

So I am with my buddy Andy Gullahhorn.

Andy Gullahorn 0:36

What's up?

Greg 0:37

And we're going to talk about his buddy, Jason Gray. I feel like it was just moments ago that we were talking and having an episode with you.

Andy Gullahorn 0:44

I think... I wonder if it feels that way because it was.

Greg 0:47

Yeah, it was. I mean, mere seconds ago.

Andy Gullahorn 0:49

Okay.

Greg 0:49

Who knows how long has transpired.

Andy Gullahorn 0:52

So much time has gone by.

Greg 0:53

Isn't it weird how time works?

Andy Gullahorn 0:55

We just time traveled. Literally.

Greg 0:58

So you have known Jason Gray for a very long time, have written a lot of songs with him. Tell me about how you got to know him and you guys go way back.

Andy Gullahorn 1:08

Yeah, we do go way back. I don't remember. All I remember about the first time that we met is that he was in Nashville for a GMA conference. And we met at Atlanta Bread Company. I just remember liking him. He's just a really likable guy. And we started writing together not long after that. I think one of the first couple of songs we wrote together is the one that you kind of initially reached out to me about for Why You Brought Me Here. Yeah, these Roots Retreats to come play. I could list so many songs I've written with Jason that just mean a lot to me. I write a lot of songs with other people, and not all of those do I feel like I can put on my own record as my own artist voice. I've probably had more songs I've written with Jason that I could do that with, and he's recorded a number of songs as well. But some of that is like our conversations sitting down. He he likes to go deep. As do you. I I think I enjoy it. Yeah. And Jason is really, really smart, as I am not. So yeah, we've just shared a lot of life together and kind of walked through different seasons pretty vulnerably. Yeah, he's always bringing something, those conversations always turn into some song that is meaningful and deep. Some of my favorites is, you know, Why You Brought Me Here is one that I use a lot. Winning Streak. Another one that I really love. We wrote a Christmas song together called I Will Find a Way, which is one of my favorite songs to be a part of. But yeah, he's just been a good friend over the years, and I love writing songs with him.

Greg 2:34

Well, one of the ones that you two wrote together that is really heavy, and both of you have recorded it, is Death Without a Funeral.

Andy Gullahorn 2:43

Yeah.

(Song Clip) Death Without a Funeral

Jason Gray (singing) 2:44

There's no stone to lay the flowers down beside. No mention in the paper, though something clearly died. No gathering for family and friends to eulogize. It's a death without a funeral.

Andy Gullahorn 3:09

For years, you know, we would get together and share life and talk about stuff and write songs. And there were a lot of songs that we wrote about like a hard time in a marriage, writing aspirationally, like hope for marriage working out. And then the marriage didn't work out. So, you know, here we were after writing all these songs about trying to make something work, talking about what is it like on this side of it when it's over. He was just really vulnerable. And and and that's one of the things that that I love about Jason is that he just brings his whole self to those songs and is willing to kind of like put himself in the seat of examination and talk about what's really going on. And that song, people have reached out about that song going through all kinds of things. I mean going through divorce, but oh, there's a million ways that that something can essentially die. And you don't get a chance to grieve it. Just a small example of the way of him opening up his own story is hopefully healing for other people who are going through things.

Greg 4:07

People who have been aware of Jason and followed him and his music for a while, you'll get to know that this is a man who has been pretty familiar with suffering. He's grown up with a speech impediment. He has a stutter that he he is real open to talk about. And then, of course, the experience with his marriage ending. And then even right now, he's got a son who's going through a major health event. And so it just seems like one thing after another. I mean, what have you noticed in him, just in how he's walked through that stuff, his resilience, his willingness to grieve?

Andy Gullahorn 4:40

I just see someone who's really brave. Someone who wants to take a good hard look at himself and is chasing after healing. And he's willing to go there. I'm always grateful for it.

Greg 4:54

There are a few people, and you're one of them, but there are few people who write songs that are that genuine. And I can't wait to talk about his music and his life. And I appreciate you taking some time to talk well about your friend.

Andy Gullahorn 5:07

Well, I love him.

Greg 5:08

Well, I love you.

Andy Gullahorn 5:09

I love you.

Greg 5:10

And we're done. But we are most definitely not done with our episode with Jason Gray. In fact, it's just getting started. Thank you, Andy, for helping us to set that up. Folks, I can't wait for you to hear this episode. It was a lengthy conversation Jason and I had. We actually talked for almost two hours. I have uh trimmed it down to a little over one hour. And I hope that you'll stay all the way through. In fact, that's why we, one of the reasons why we called this episode a conversation worth staying for. We ran the gamut on topics. We talked about songwriting, friendship, having gone through abandonment, physical struggles like stuttering, going through divorce, having a child with leukemia, and just even examining the concept of what we do when we are functioning in our shadow self. It's crazy. If it was there to talk about, we talked about it. Jason is a fascinating man. He has been a singer-songwriter for more than 20 years. You can get his music anywhere you stream it. Something new that Jason can add to his list of accomplishments is being an author. He has a book coming out shortly. It's called Words and Music by Jason Gray, Devotional Essays and Stories from a Life in Songs. The other reason we call the episode A Conversation Worth Staying For is Worth Staying For is the title of a song Jason released a few years ago that is autobiographical. It tells us stories of when he was abandoned by his dad as a small child, the pain of going through a divorce. We'll play a clip from that song. If you haven't already been introduced to his music, go check it out. This is episode 69 with our guest Jason Gray. It's called The Conversation Worth Staying For. And that conversation starts right now.

Welcome Jason; Connecting, Staying Present...

Jason Gray 6:53

I think you might have the wrong email address. You sent it to, and he's a guy in Canada who does Irish orchestral music.

Greg 7:03

Well, if he joins, we can we can apologize in person. So that would be kind of fun.

Jason Gray 7:08

I always wanted to hire him to do some like orchestral arrangements. Yeah. So that it could say orchestral arrangements by Jason Gray.

Greg 7:18

And it would yeah, you'd sound multi-even more multi-talented.

Jason Gray 7:21

Yeah.

Greg 7:22

Good to see you. It's good to see you too. I guess last time was standing around the fire.

Jason Gray 7:27

Andy Gulla horn's birthday. What a meaningful life he's created.

Greg 7:33

Yeah, I was with him a couple of weekends ago and we were talking about it. And you know, obviously he's just like, you know, shrugging his shoulders. But yeah, 130 people don't show up for your birthday party if if you're a jerk.

Jason Gray 7:48

No, that's the biggest part of it, right? But like also from the outside looking in, it looks like he's prioritized community and and play within that community.

Greg 8:02

Mm-hmm. I released a second episode with Andy and we talked about that exact thing.

Jason Gray 8:08

Yeah.

Greg 8:09

I have been looking forward to this because I know from everything I've heard over the years about you from Andy, and then what I've known from you just in the couple of times that we've talked prior to today, I think there's going to be a lot of meaningful things. I'm I'm looking forward to whatever meaningful things come from our conversation. Let me just ask you, because I always ask our guests this question what do you, Jason, really want out of our conversation?

Jason Gray 8:34

Connection.

Greg 8:36

Well, that's a good thing.

Jason Gray 8:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg 8:40

Any sense of what you'd want that to look like?

Jason Gray 8:43

You know, you know what it's like when you you fall into a conversation that is meaningful. Everything starts humming, and you know, you know, you're on holy ground and you lose track of time. And right, you know, I'm always hunting for that meaningfulness, meaningfulness, and and connection. And hopefully to learn something or to deepen my understanding and something is always good. How about you?

Greg 9:14

When you said the phrase "losing track of time," it really connected with me because I one of my biggest struggles is staying present in moments and not thinking about what's next or what needs to happen. And like I'm right now, what I'm wanting is to not be looking to my left at the little recorder and the clock on it. I'm trusting that if you need to go, you'll tell me. And like, I just really want to stay fully immersed in the conversation we're gonna have. And it's also occurring to me, Jason, like probably in a couple minutes, you and I will have been talking longer than we did at Andy's backyard. So this will be like the longest conversation you and I have ever had. And it's already to me been pretty meaningful. And so I just I can't wait for what else is coming. Can I talk nicely about you for a couple of minutes and then we can find other things to get curious about? How are you when other people say nice things to your face?

Jason Gray 10:15

I'm getting better about it. I'm I'm um, you know, another interesting thing that I learned from Andy, like that he put language to is he was he was playing at some retreat, participating in it, but also playing. And uh so he got up and he played the songs, and everyone and he walks off stage and was like, ah, that was so great. And he had to say thank you. But there's something about when you do that, it makes me feel other, it makes me feel separate from everybody, and I don't think I want that. They're like, Oh yeah, yeah, I understand. So then when he played again, he got done and he walked off, and nobody did any of this per his request, and then he was like, Well, shoot, I don't like that either. That feels weird, you know. I think there's just a uh a natural discomfort. I think about us about C.S. Lewis, how he said, and I can't remember where he said it, but the big idea was that true humility is being able to be as happy for yourself and for your accomplishments as you would for your friends. So I'm learning. Love it. So yeah, I want to hear what you're gonna say.

Greg 11:36

Okay, so first time I heard your name was at a recovery meeting, the person facilitating the meeting to kick off the discussion because it was about like identity and how addiction is not our identity. It's just something that we identify as our struggle. He played the music video for Remind Me Who I Am.

(Song Clip) Remind Me Who I Am

Greg 12:22

And so that was a couple of years into my recovery. Yeah, just watching and listening to that, it was so specifically encouraging to where I and a lot of the other guys in the meeting were, because that's not, you know, when you first either confess or get exposed and realize like I need to be in a room like this, it's such a humbling thing. And the the default is not to think of how, you know, treasured you are by Jesus, even though that's true. And so to have a reminder like that was really, really cool. So that was my first introduction to you and to your music. And then the second was just how I got to know more about you was when my friendship with Andy started 10 years ago. And I realized how many songs the two of you have co-written. And I don't, I think I've told you this, but every time we have one of our Roots Retreat Men's Intensives, Andy sings Why You Brought Me Here. And that song, probably more than any other, has been like the theme song of my recovery. Just the the way that you guys wrote those lyrics.

(Song Clip) Why You Brought Me Here

Jason Gray (singing) 13:41

I always heard you loved me, but I think I know it now. Is that the reason why you brought me? I guess I'm grateful that you brought me.

Jason Gray 14:05

That means a lot. That was one of our first songs we wrote with each other, and I I and I've always loved it so much. I need to do like an updated version of that song.

Greg 14:17

When people come up and talk to you at your concerts about the songs that were the most deeply meaningful, are they usually the ones that were the singles, or are they the ones that were kind of more the deep cuts that just stuck with him? Or is it some of both?

Jason Gray 14:29

It's some of both. You know, singles. I suppose the idea I had when I was growing up is that if a song was a hit single, that means it was one of the best songs, and that's why it became a hit, you know. Yeah. And then just as I've gotten older, I've I've realized no, a hit is usually lowest common denominator. You know, that that like it it has to appeal to the most people, and you know, and kind of takes all the boxes, right? Right, yeah, yeah. And and and rounds off the edges. I don't think that's always true, but most of the time it's true. I think of a hit song as like a McDonald's cheeseburger. It's a pretty good cheeseburger. I like a McDonald's cheeseburger, but it's not the best cheeseburger I've had. The best cheeseburger I had was a little place about a mile from here called Subculture. You could squeeze 16 people in there at a time, you know. And and it was just a sublime cheeseburger. No, no, no, no. They aren't gonna sell billions the way that McDonald's did, you know. But McDonald's is like the hit song. The reason why we brought me here is more like a subculture burger, you know.

Naming "the Stutter..."

Jason Gray 15:48

I should explain for anyone who's hearing this who doesn't know this about me. You can hear that I I have a speech handicap. It's not because Oliver's making me nervous.

Greg 16:00

I'm a very intimidating person. So well, and that's something that I have potentially for us to talk about. You've gone through a lot of suffering in your life, and you've talked a lot about it and and been really, really open. And so those are some of the things that if our conversation goes there, I'm kind of ready to ask you some questions about. But yeah, thanks for letting people know about that. I'm gonna go ahead and ask you a question about that since you mentioned it. How much have you experienced people needing you to acknowledge that because you they they visually seem uncomfortable versus it's no big deal?

Jason Gray 16:36

You know, I think about what leadership looks like, you know, and and and have you read The Wounded Healer? He speaks about how like the the you know the true spiritual leader has to go into the darkness first, you know. And and and I remember hearing uh a guy speaking about communication many years ago, and he just talked about how like you know, like while he's speaking, if there's a distraction in the hall, everyone's gonna be distracted until you go there with them, like oh wow, something's going on out there, right? Wow. So anyway, and if you go there with them, and then you can bring them back, you know. So I my experience is is that until I name it and demonstrate that I'm okay with it and I know you're okay with it, we're all okay with it. So let's keep going, you know. Then it just it gives it gives clarity, I suppose. It helps people know how they should think about it, you know. Otherwise, are they feeling bad for me that you know, like like that I'm I'm struggling with this thing and and that maybe I wish I could be more fluent and so as it's happening that they're distracted by rooting for me or feeling bad for me, you know, but like name it, then we can just move on. Yeah, it's interesting. Very often more inclined to stutter the more that I don't want to. So the first portion of a concert until I can speak about it, I'm more like, okay, don't stutter, don't stutter, don't stutter. It can make people uncomfortable, you know, all that kind of stuff. But then as soon as I talk about it, then I don't worry about it as much anymore. And then it kind of goes away because I'm not worried about it happening anymore.

Greg 18:36

It's amazing the way the brain and the nervous system and the body work in such mysterious ways. Okay. Before I was in recovery, I was a worship and music pastor, and that tends to come to an abrupt end when you get exposed in a years-long sexual addiction. But

The Songwriting Experience

Greg 18:52

just in the people that I've had relationships with throughout those that season of my life, and I've just continued to know a lot of people in music, I know a lot of songwriters. Honestly, it's it's always something I've been a little bit jealous about. But one thing I've noticed about my friends who write songs collaboratively is that they tend, when they talk about the process of writing with other people, often it seems like the song that is the outcome of those sessions isn't really what they talk about as the best part. A lot of times people talk about just the connection that they feel and the conversations that they have while writing that eventually leads to that song as the thing that that mattered the most to them. I was just having a conversation about this with Andy recently, and I would love to get your take. Like you've collaborated a lot as a songwriter. What has that been like? What's what's been the the best part of that for you?

Jason Gray 19:46

Yeah, well, you know, when I read with Andy, it's a great example. And and for anyone here in this who hasn't heard Andy Gullahorn's music, which is a hard name to look up, even when the guy with a speech handicap isn't trying to pronounce it. G-U-L-L-A-H-O-R-N, Andy Gullahorn. Go look up his music. It's it's uh it's very truthful, it gets it gets to the heart of reality. It's fearless. And because of that, you know, I'll I'll I'm uh I'm often bringing him the most uh tender, exposed parts of my life, and and and saying, you know, I I need to get this out into a song, you know. I'll arrive at his place like at 10 a.m. and we'll just kind of catch up for a couple hours and we uh break to go eat tacos and then come back, and the song usually uh spills out in about an hour, hour and a half, you know. And so I think of the songs as like artifacts of a meaningful conversation with my friend. You know, so that's one way I think about it, you know. And and very often if if I'm working with a newer writer, I walk in and I say, All right, what are we most afraid of talking about today? Because that's probably the song, you know. Some people are willing to go there more than others, you know. Andy is Andy's always willing to go there.

Greg 21:19

I just jotted something down. I want to listen to again what is it that uh I'm afraid of talking about that might be what we need to write about.

Jason Gray 21:29

Yeah, yeah.

Greg 21:30

That that feels pretty real.

Jason Gray 21:33

Yeah, you know, and I it like what I'm aiming for is to try to write without armor and uh you know, and and to write a song that gives direct access to the heart, to the listener's heart, to my heart, to the heart of God, to the heart of reality. And it's it's it's surprisingly hard to do that, even if you're Even if you're trying to do it. You know, like if it's too poetic that gets in the way. If it's not poetic enough, that gets in the way. Sometimes my experience is that like a great melodic hook, for some reason, I feel like it's harder to write a meaningful lyric to a really hooky melody. I don't know why why it's like that, you know. So so there are all kinds of barriers to getting to the heart of something.

Greg 22:35

I wonder if the if the really hooky melody is almost like that distracting noise outside that you were talking about earlier that could maybe be so interesting that it pulls attention away from what you're really hoping the most that people keep with them.

Jason Gray 22:54

Something like that, I think. Yeah, you know. I love I love song craft. I love like really crafted lyrics. But that can get in the way too, you know? So Leonard Cohen, the great songwriter, he believed uh some songs ought to be like the altars that the ancient Israelites were commanded to make. They were commanded to make altars out of unhewn stone because apparently God didn't want smooth, he didn't want like crafted, he didn't want, you know. And so how do you write those songs that are jagged around the edges still? You know, I'm working on a book right now, and I have used AI. I don't use it to write the book for me, but I will use it like as an editor to assess are these ideas clear and is my grammar right and formatting and all that, you know. And every once in a while, like it'll it'll spit out a suggestion for how I might reword things. And that can be useful also to kind of help you to see a different way that it could go, you know, but I want to be careful to not lean on it too much, you know. And so you have to develop a recognition of what is valuable about that and and prioritize imperfection in your work, I guess, and as a feature rather than a bug, right? Does that make sense? Am I making sense at all? It does to me when I hear the perfectly crafted country song or even you know Christian song, where it's like, man, it's it's so the the crafting is so it doesn't move me like it it doesn't feel human enough or or something, you know. So so I'm learning to value the imperfections as one of the things that keeps our heart open when we're listening to music.

Greg 24:58

Yeah, I mean you've used the word imperfection several times, and Brene Brown refers to imperfections as gifts, and they really are. There's a uniqueness in the experiences that we have when we are more worried about being authentic than perfect.

Jason Gray 25:14

Yeah.

"You Don't Have a Very Good Voice..."

Jason Gray 25:15

I think of David Byrne of the Talking Heads, you know, he was interviewed, and the the question was, you don't have a very good singing voice. Why are you a singer? And his answer was, well, my experience is that the better a person sings, the harder it is to believe them. And I believe Bob Dylan and Johnny Cash in a way that I I don't believe Celine Dion. I'm not knocking Celine Dion. I just I believe them like in a different way, a deeper way, I think.

Greg 25:51

You know, so if somebody comes up to you at the end of uh one of your shows and says, Jason, I believed you. Is that a compliment?

Jason Gray 25:59

Like I know, right?

Greg 26:03

Well, hey, we've been talking about Andy a lot. People who've been listening to this episode know that we actually kicked it off by we always have a little preamble at the beginning. This time it was Andy. I got on with Andy and just had him talk about you a little bit, uh, knowing that you and I were gonna have this conversation. He said you have a lot in common. He says some one thing that we don't have in common is Jason's really smart, and I'm not so much. He he said that you just very naturally go very deep, very quickly. Another word that he used to describe you was brave. It kind of gets, I think, to what you said when you go in to meet with him, and there are there's catch up and there's not catch up, there's catching. And the thing that you're maybe afraid of is the thing that maybe you need to write about. I think that's what he was probably talking about when he described you as brave.

Jason Gray 26:55

Yeah.

Greg 26:56

If it's okay, I was gonna see if we could take a few minutes just to talk about some of the things in your life that have invited you to be brave.

Jason Gray 27:05

Yes.

Greg 27:06

I'm thinking about two things that you've been so open about just over the years to talk about. Is I I make up two of the hardest things you ever walked through, and one was when you were in first grade and your dad left, and then the other one was 10 or 11 years ago when your marriage ended, both of which you wrote about in a song called Worth Staying for.

(Song Clip) Worth Staying For

Jason Gray (singing) 27:30

I spoke without a stutter through the middle of first grade until my little world came apart. When I overheard my father saying that he just couldn't stay, and my speech broke the same day as my heart. But I think I couldn't get the question out. Stay in for wasn't our worth staying for more than forty-five years later. I still see him at the door. Wasn't our worth staying for?

The Song Wasn't Finished...

Greg 28:22

That was the onset of the speech impediment that you've already been referring to. People accuse you of just using it to get attention. You write about that. You've spoken about the breakup of your marriage. And then you and I, Andy's house, were talking about just the more current struggle, which is just watching your son be very, very sick. Yeah. I look at some people and what they've walked through, and it just feels like too much.

Jason Gray 28:46

Oh, that's thank you for your care for me. I will say, like, I I don't I don't think I'm particularly brave. I also don't feel like I've I've I've gone through more than the the average person, you know. Like I I don't think I have it worse than anybody else or have gone through anything worse. I think I might be more sensitive than other people, you know, and so I I I do to talk about it more, you know, but I I I don't think I've had it had it any worse than anybody else. I do think, you know, I think very early on, as I began to be aware of what I believe was a calling on my life, and I had this weird speech handicap, I'm like, well, okay, well, how's that supposed to work? You know, and oh, of course, if I step out in faith and I do this anyway, then the Lord will make it go away, right? And uh and that would be my my testimony that when you step out in faith, the Lord meets you there and gives you what you need to do what He's called you to do. Okay, great. Let's go, you know? And I was part of a very hyper charismatic religious culture at the time. When I'd step out and I'd still stutter, it had to mean that I wasn't believing hard enough or or there was a sin in my life, or I was getting something wrong, you know. And so then I would just try harder. And so I was on this this uh shame and try harder treadmill for many years. I remember a night I was playing at uh a local coffee shop called the Coffee Hag, and I I stuttered horribly that night and walked off the stage in humiliation, and all I wanted to do was hide, go home. And I'm packing up my things, and I notice a line of people forming to speak with me. I'm like, oh, okay, you know, and I I turn to meet them, and one after the other, I just hear the same thing, which is thank you for doing what you did, because it reminds me that I'm I'm not defined by my limitations either. And I remember realizing that, oh, it wasn't the songs I sang, it wasn't the stories I shared. It was just the fact that I was I was broken and I got up there and I did it anyway. That's what ministered to people, that's what accomplished something, you know. And that was the beginning of me understanding that I believe that God wanted to use me, not in spite of my weaknesses, but because of them. And I suppose that got me in the habit of of sharing openly about the struggles I've had, big and small, you know.

Greg 31:46

I'm curious about something with that story you just told, that show that you felt so badly because because your stutter was was distracting, at least for you, and you saw the line forming. Do you remember? Did you feel like you wanted to talk to those people, or do or is it more like, oh geez, I just want to get out of here?

Jason Gray 32:06

It's funny that you would ask that. I because I remember specifically my face felt hot because I felt very embarrassed. Now I gotta talk with these people after I've just done this, you know, humiliated myself publicly. And now to make it worse, I gotta face individuals who just saw all of that happen, you know. Then one after the other, that that dis-ease melted away.

Greg 32:34

Yeah, and I was thinking about that because I trying to put myself in your position, I think there would have been a part of me just saying, gosh, I just want to get the heck out of here. And that's what I and to believe, to believe whatever the embarrassment was trying to tell me was true, and yet being willing to, oh, here we go, you know, and and and do more talking, you know. The talking was the most uncomfortable part, and now these people are lining up, making me do more of it, and yet there's a gift for it. Sounds like there was a gift for you that wouldn't have been there.

Jason Gray 33:09

And it was a small coffee shop, yes. So I just walked off the stage and was packing up my guitar and you know, trying to hurry so I could just put everybody out of out of our misery and just leave, you know. So, you know, and and then I just, oh shoot, there's a line of people forming there. And I and I had a hard time looking them in the eye. And and then, but then with with with each person who spoke with me, just like all that anxiety and and shame just kind of relaxed, you know, and then I and then I could receive this this insight that I I needed and that has sh shaped everything since. All that to say, I don't think that I've suffered necessarily more than anybody else, but I have found it to be a meaningful treasure trove to mine. Does that make sense?

Greg 34:05

You know, it does. And I think, you know, when you say I don't think I've had any worse than anybody else, I've heard lots of people who have gone through really painful, traumatic things who have said that. For me, I found that the better comparison isn't what I went through compared to what other people went through, but it's what did I go through compared to what I was created to go through, you know, and and the the pain is just a reminder that I'm not in the place that I was made for yet. And so for it to be painful and for it to be excruciating, like, yeah, because that's I wasn't made for suffering like this. I wasn't made for relationships to end, but that's where I am right now. But the thing, and another thing you said was like in the coffee shop when you felt like it didn't go well until you had those conversations, it wasn't the songs that was the most meaningful for those people. It was, it was you struggling and them getting to be there for it. And it just really hits me that, like you said, the the songs are what initiates the connection. But then what do you do once the people have picked up your music, have come to your show, and then they listen to that? I mean, that's the thing. There are some people who probably heard your story after they heard your music, but I bet my bet would be a lot of people heard some story about what you've been through, and that's what drew them to your music.

Jason Gray 35:36

Worth staying for is so deeply personal. It's it's the most like exposed song I've ever released. I was I was I was nervous about releasing it actually. And for eight years I only had half of it done. There were a few times where I'd say, Hey, do you guys want to hear a song that's not done yet? And I'd play it, and and the response was so deep and meaningful, you know. That was why I decided to finish the song. I have this memory of my dad walking out the door and my grandpa, because we lived at my grandparents' house, saying, I'll see you tonight, and my dad saying, No, he won't. I'm not coming back. I see him standing in the doorway saying that. And that seems implausible to me that that conversation would have happened in that way, but I have that memory in my head, you know. So, like, I don't know, did it happen in that way, or did I compile certain memories? Because I was five. There's no doubt what the impact was. And and I just bring that up because I've I've I've found it's it's helpful for me to be suspicious of my narrative, but not in a way that invalidates the impact, like you were saying. There's a lot of complexity to all of that, and and for me, it's been helpful to keep as much complexity as as I can. Verse one, there's a lot of hurt, and then verse two begins with, We were married up in Washington, and I imagine that the listeners like, oh no, here it comes, you know. I can't take much more. Oh no, this is about his marriage. Oh shoot, you know, I can see where this is going, and I don't know if I want to go there. I wonder if you experienced this in the catastrophe that you went through.

When Catastrophe Comes

Jason Gray 37:31

If there is something about catastrophe that blasts away some of the blinders, you know. I think my wife's extreme unhappiness that led her away from our marriage broke me out of like a calcified way of thinking that all of a sudden I could see things that I I couldn't see before, you know.

Greg 37:54

Yeah, the way that I talk about things like that, I tend to think in silly analogies. And the one about what you've been describing is if I'm outside hammering planks into a deck and it's been late in the day, I'm tired, and I'm kind of sleepy, and my focus is drifting. There's nothing like smashing your thumb with a hammer to bring you to a point of instant clarity as to what's going on. Pain will do that like nothing else will do it.

Jason Gray 38:23

You know, I don't think I was a horrible husband. Like there's no like headline over our marriage that she left because of this or whatever. I was really trying to be a good husband, that meant a lot to me. But, you know, I think there were just things I didn't see and and and needs of hers that I didn't recognize or have a capacity to see. But you know, when our marriage began to fall apart, and the pain of that did bring me very present to things that I just had not recognized before. And it's it's interesting because I I I I think that pain transformed me. I think she would like who I've become because of how that woke me up to things I hadn't been able to see before. I think the failure of our marriage is maybe what our marriage needed the most. Does that make sense? You know, it does to me. And then I I which is not to say it's what you wanted. No, no, no. The pain of all of that woke me up and and and uh helped me to see the ways that I was falling short, you know. I can give a specific example. She liked to arrive at the airport two hours early before a flight. And I just, oh man, I think you gotta hang out at the airport for an hour is fine, right? You know, I think that she was managing some anxiety that I didn't know how to recognize at the time. And getting to the airport early helped that for her. And I'm like, oh, we don't have we don't have to get there two hours. And so no matter how much she asked for that, we'd always end up getting to the airport about an hour before, you know. We're fine, we're fine. And then as the marriage began to fall apart, you know, that was one of the things that I recognized, like, oh, oh shoot, you know, I I think she had some travel anxiety and and and and I could have loved her better. I could have just got us out the door sooner. Why didn't I do that? You know, I think our marriage probably came apart because of a hundred of those kinds of things, you know.

Greg 40:43

I I think about the clarity and the the things that you've been able to hold on to that you've that you've received, that you've learned, that you've noticed, however, however's the best way of putting it, since the divorce. And I'm wanting to make sure to resist looking like I'm trying to paint a silver lining or put a bow on top of of something that was horrific. But I think about one of the many, you you said a hundred things that contributed to the failure. And there's probably a hundred more things that are redemptive or potentially redemptive that have come out of it since. And the one doesn't negate the other. I just know that from my perspective, the community that that I'm a part of, and several men who whose marriages haven't survived their addiction have listened to some of the music that you've written since 2015 and songs like Honesty. They have felt seen and heard and understood.

(Song Clip) Honesty

Jason Gray (singing) 41:46

If I told you I still trusted you, I'd honestly be lying through my teeth. But it's funny how it's always you I'm talking to when I say I don't believe.

Greg 43:07

You did go through that. And it could have been just a part of your life that never that never made it into what you do as your calling or your career, but it did. And so both of those things happened. And so, like it's there's parts of it, I imagine, that still suck pretty hard. Oh, yeah. And then also parts of it where there's some beauty that's come out of it. That can be really cool to be aware of the both and, but it can also be pretty confusing.

Jason Gray 43:36

Yeah, I you know, I I think being a songwriter gives you a pretty immediate outlet and application or or or or like a a way to to be a good steward of your pain and and and like a a very available application for making meaning uh Of it, you know. I'm very fortunate in that way, you know. But it's weird too because you don't want to use your pain as a gimmick either, like as a like you know, oh, I've gone through this awful thing. I can't wait to write a song about it, you know. Like I don't think I do that.

Greg 44:14

Well, you say you're fortunate, and I don't argue with that, but also not to negate the part that you made choices as to how much you were gonna show up for what came with those experiences. And I noticed another thing in the lyrics of worth staying for, you you quote Richard Rohr in a sense, you know, because he says pain that's not transformed will be transmitted. Uh that was beautiful to me, just because I've heard it so many times in the context of what I do, and then looking at it with those two stories that you reflected on in verses one and two. You have to you have to surrender to a process that really sucks a lot of the time in order to be transformed by pain. Yeah.

Jason Gray 45:01

It doesn't happen in easy ways. No. Richard Rohr says the two most reliable engines for transformation are are great love or great suffering, you know. Sometimes they team up. If I was gonna speak about the pain that I experienced from my dad and from my ex-wife, I needed to aim that at myself too. I can't just throw other people under the bus and

Taking Ownership After Catastrophe

Jason Gray 45:29

and you never want to be the hero or the victim of your own song. It took like eight years, and I in that eight years, I tried to open myself up to love again. And early on met somebody and we were engaged, and we had a three-year relationship, and uh we broke off the engagement, which in many ways was almost more painful than the divorce, I think, because the engagement felt like I have a second chance and I've learned my lessons, and this isn't going to be like the last experience I had, you know. And so when that engagement fell apart, I don't know that it was very painful for me at least. And then I I had a few other relationships and you know that that didn't work out, and and having to face the reality that I'm the common denominator of all my relationships that don't work out, you know, I don't want to take too much responsibility for that. You know, there's always two people involved, but I also don't want to not take enough responsibility. And so as I was being curious with myself about all that, what I was discovering was that it it felt like each relationship, like I thought, yeah, I'm I'm I'm ready for this, I'm ready to love again. And then I'd get to the starting line, and when the gun would go off, I'd find that my ankles were still broken. I had to own that this this whole thing is just very complicated and that I had acted out on others what my dad and ex-wife had acted upon me, you know, and I had to take responsibility for that. Pain will be transmitted if it doesn't get transformed. And I did have a moment where like all of the wounds I had received and the wounds that I had handed out, I was just broken by it, devastated. And I had a long sleepless night where I just felt the weariness of all of it and just didn't want to be on planet Earth anymore, you know. And came about as close as I ever have to taking an early exit, you know. And I wrote a week ago I couldn't sleep, I was drowning in my shame. If I could have ended it, I would. But in the middle of that darkness, somehow I knew that God came and stayed with me until I understood wasn't I worth staying for. What I'm grateful for in that song that we wrote is that I didn't bring that song to a premature conclusion with my earlier idea I had. And that by just waiting and paying attention to I believe the Holy Spirit, you know, that and and that sense that I don't think this song is done, that I waited until I'd lived enough life to get to a truer place, you know.

Greg 48:25

Yeah. I'm glad that we took the time to just unpack that that one song and how it kind of, you know, weaves through a lot of the experience we've been talking about, because the the song that's the McDonald's cheeseburger will sometimes make people lean in. Yeah. But what keeps people from instantly like being diverted to something else more interesting is when it's not pithy, it's not oversimplistic. When you hear enough to know the person who's writing about the hurt is someone who probably is still hurting and not getting an easy, cool song out of it. But like, this is my journal of my suffering right now. And I'm allowing, I'm allowing you to share it. I think, Jason, it's a gift. I don't know if you've thought about it this way, but I think it's a gift that you share with other hurting people who find their way to your music. Because it could be their journal entry too. It's just that some some people like you have a way with words that that many of us don't. And so rather than try to come up with the words, it's like, oh, that, that right there.

Jason Gray 49:33

That's what songs do for me, you know. If my song could do that for someone else, that's that's great. Yeah.

Parenting Through Leukemia And Receiving Help

Jason Gray 49:41

How's your son? Oh, thank you. Yeah, you know, for those of you who don't know, he's he's uh he's been battling leukemia for about five years now. And he battled it once, shoot, I want to say I think 2018. He had his first I lose track of time, but uh it almost took his life at that time. But he he came back from the edge and went through all of his treatments and he rang the bell, and we thought, oh, I think that's gonna be the end of that, you know. And then two years later, we're back dealing with it again. He started to get this black eye, and then it just kept swelling and swelling until it was about the size of a softball, and they couldn't figure out what was going on, and and then they realized, oh, the leukemia's back, you know. So he's going through treatments again, and it's it's it's hell on him, but it appears to be working. I did a little announcement about it, launched a ho fund me campaign, and and people were so generous, and so that has really helped him because he hasn't been able to work while he's in the midst of that. So yeah. So much of my life is made possible by the kindness of strangers, and that's uh one more example. But he's uh he's in it, it's it's hard on him, but it's it's working.

Greg 51:17

I'm sure that people who are listening and maybe hearing about him for the first time, you're you're gonna get more people praying for. Hey, you mentioned the book. Tell me what it's about and when we might be able to read it.

Jason Gray 51:31

Uh, it's a book of devotional essays for all the songs I've ever released. It's taken me four and a half years. I'm very close to I'm actually done with my part. I'm hoping I'll have it in hand by mid-June.

Greg 51:43

Very cool. Well, we'll we'll make sure any links that you have for how people can find your music, eventually your book, anything else that that will help them get to know you better, we'll put it in the show notes. What would make me really happy is if a lot more people know who you are and have connected to the music that you put out after listening to this conversation.

Jason Gray 52:06

That's kind, you know, I

Oh, By the Way... The Shadow Self?

Jason Gray 52:08

didn't get to ask you about the main thing that I wanted to ask you to do. Addiction, do I I got time? I'll just put this idea out there now, and it's a big thing to open up here at the end, but I it's it's been the main thing that's been on my mind for the last like three or four years. I'm sure you've heard of the shadow and doing shadow work and Carl Jung's conceptualization of the shadow self, what I believe it was Thomas Merton. He referred to it as the false self. The apostle Paul talks about when he says, What's wrong with me? Why do I do what I don't want to do? And the things that I do want to do, I don't do that. You know, that's he's speaking about the shadow. And my my my growing understanding of my shadow, the curiosity that I now understand it as the primary thing that I wish religious instruction would be speaking about. But I I I'd never received any instruction on it. And to me, it seems like it's the main thing. And I see it all over in scripture now, and it's like, why are we not talking about this? I was given a book like 25 years ago called Owning Your Own Shadow by Robert Johnson, and it's only like 150 pages long, and I lost it for like 20 years, and I found it again a few years ago. Like, oh, I remember this book, and I'm so glad I lost it because if I would have read it 25 years ago, I would have thought, oh yeah, I've read that book. I understood what it was talking about, but I did not have the capacity back then until I gone through all this brokenness and loss and failure and all of those things that expanded my capacity to be able to understand these ideas. So I'm so glad I lost the book. And I think I came upon it right on time, you know, because when I read it, I was I was finally able to grasp the concepts. I believe, I believe anyway. But the idea is that, you know, from the time we're born, we begin to get signals from the world around us about what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. And we began to repress what's not acceptable so that we can get the love that we want in the world, you know. And we start doing that from very early on. And so we repress these things. We we we we exile them, and all those things that we exile become the shadow. So, like anger, lust, pride to a certain degree, you know. We're pressing it down, but it's still there and it can still operate upon us, right? A great example is that, you know, like I can be very civilized and kind and reasonable and well spoken until I lose it, I lose my temper, and then all of a sudden I'll punch a hole in the wall or or something, and then I'll be like, whoa, where did that come from? And you know, a way to understand all that is that that's the shadow waiting for its opportunity to express itself, and that happened, you know, with with with with sexual behavior, especially, right? Yeah, and and I'll say the idea that I absorbed from my religious instruction was that we deny those impulses and we reject them and we exile them. But as long as we do that, we are populating this part of ourselves called the shadow, and we're never, and because we're not integrating them, we're never maturing them, we're never like growing them into obedience to Christ, right? Yeah, and so like one of the things in this book, it talks about how ironically the people who are who are the most well behaved often have the biggest shadows because they've learned to put more and more into that space, yeah, which is why we see a lot of religious leaders have moral failures. Whereas the idea in the book is that rather than exiling and rejecting these impulses, the key is to, to a certain degree, accept them and invite them out of the shadow into the light of God's love and grace and awareness, our own awareness, and accept that these are parts of ourselves without demonizing or shaming them, and then integrate them. And what's beautiful about that is that like anger, when it's integrated and grown up into maturity, then our anger becomes backbone and authority. Like integrated anger becomes all these good things.

Greg 57:41

Yeah, I didn't either. But what you've been talking about the last several minutes, I mean, you're pumping our jet fuel. I mean, this is the this is the work that we do. Something that you were saying, we we learn the things that are socially acceptable and the things that aren't, and we learn how to suppress or how to put on a certain mask. And you know, one of the things that we say at our intensives that we do is people will sacrifice authenticity for connection every time. We will step away from our true selves if we think that is what is required to get attention, attunement, connection, acceptance. And the thing is, the sad part is we start doing it when we're so, so young. And often it's because as young children, we are misreading the signs because it's it's usually not the intention of our caregivers to communicate you have to be somebody other than who you are in order to be acceptable. It could be as, and the example I use is I've got a four-year-old grandson, and when he was a toddler still, he was old enough to realize that he could do things that were funny that we would laugh at. And so he would do these silly things and we would laugh, but the the psychological makeup of a child will say, Oh, you love me more when I do that when I'm funny than you do when I'm not funny. And we would say, Oh, no, we love you the same. It's just that that those there are certain things that you do that are more enjoyable and other things that you do that we don't like as much. That doesn't compute to a child. And so when we get these messages for the first time, and some of them were direct. I mean, some of them, some of us grew up in places where don't be sad, don't get angry, don't cry, you know, and it was was more overt, but sometimes it was just the way people would react to us when we would do those things, we would show those strong emotions, and we got the message like this is too much for you. And so I'm gonna learn how to suppress them. But by suppressing them, we're not dissipating them. We're just, and and one of the therapists, he he calls it the beach ball effect, where it's like if you're at a swimming pool and you're holding an inflated beach ball under the water, you know, that's the suppression, and we can do it for a while, but we can't do it forever. And then eventually the pressure of these unprocessed and unwelcomed feelings gets too much and it overpowers us. And when it comes out, it's like a bomb going off, and it's almost always in a massively destructive way in our lives. It'll come out like a rage incident, an addiction, a suicide attempt, all of these ways because rather than letting those feelings come along with us for the ride. I know in John Eldridge's newest book, he talks about having those fragmented parts be allowed to heal and re-integrate themselves into the whole person. And this is, you know, a lot of people who do work with IFS, internal family systems, mode of therapy, it's it's kind of akin to what they talk about. It's these exiled parts of us that need to just know that it's okay for you to exist. You don't get to drive the car because you're young, you're immature, you don't know how to drive a car, but you get to be in the car. And so many of us have thought that those were unwelcome. They can't even be along for the ride. And so they come out sideways.

Jason Gray 1:01:06

Yeah. And the thing that I and I might be being too black and white about this, but my own experience is that, you know, as long as I demonized my desire and shamed it as lust, wrestled with with with with you know pornography and and and and other unhelpful expressions and outlets for that, you know. I just would try to overcome that, but but it was always kind of there under the surface. But once I just kind of relaxed and I accepted that this is a part of who I am, and that there's even a worship instinct associated with it, you know, and and and and I just stopped shaming it and I welcomed it in and embraced it and then matured it, grew it up, you know, lovingly. I just I don't struggle with that.

Greg 1:02:08

Yeah, yeah. That's so important. I mean, for people, not only for people who are in addiction recovery, but really anybody to come to realize that disordered or distorted desires cause so many problems in our lives. And the problem isn't that desire exists, it's that in trying to suppress them, they get, they go sideways. And, you know, you mentioned some of them. I mean, anger is an emotion that we feel often because something that is happening is rubbing up against our image-bearing desire for justice. And so if I see an injustice in the world and I get angry, then I'm acting like Jesus because Jesus got angry at injustice. He was able to always channel his anger in helpful ways. And I don't always do that, but I can grow to be able to do it more, but not if I don't ever let anger be present. Like fear is an emotion that people aren't comfortable with, but fear is there because we have a hardwired desire to survive and to be safe.

Jason Gray 1:03:13

Yeah.

Greg 1:03:13

And, you know, sadness, sadness is a beautiful emotion because it says something that meant something to me has changed or has gone away. And if that's the case, why would I not want to be sad? You know, and and just in my personal growth and in my recovery, I have learned how to stop using the phrase negative emotion because I don't believe there is such a thing. And and there there are unpleasant emotions, there are difficult, hard emotions, but none of them are negative because they're all connecting to something beautiful that's in the way that I was made.

Jason Gray 1:03:50

Yeah. And you're ahead of me on all this, but my growing understanding is that that that in that in that space between stimulus and response that that that like once shaming enters that that it's counterproductive and and usually creates the problem that they want to avoid. That's right.

Greg 1:04:12

That's right.

Jason Gray 1:04:13

Yeah. I was listening to Richard Rohr speaking on a Brene Brown podcast. He said this thing was like, Oh, that's what I've been struggling to understand. Like, why do I feel the sense that I have that the church is is kind of missing it. He said mainline Christianity didn't attack the ego, which is where self-righteousness comes from, right? Which I think is the mother of all sins, probably, with fear maybe underneath that, you know. But but mainline Christianity didn't attack the ego, it attacked the shadow. So we learned how to hide our shadow. It's a cult of innocence. Now, when you spend all your time hiding the shadow, you end up with people who live in high levels of illusion. I thought, oh my gosh, that's that's it. You know, so much of my religious instruction, it didn't attack my ego. Oftentimes it it uh it fed my ego in ways that I didn't recognize at the time, you know, through my willpower, my discipline to be holy and you know, all these things. Instead, it attacked the shadow, which made me force it further into exile and grow my shadow into a monster that regularly overthrow me. You know, I'm working on a record right now about the church, and I've been looking for language. Like, how do I address that? You know, I'm working on it still, but I just wanted to wonder about that. Can't wait. I'm sure I gotta let you go, but thank you for having me and being um curious about my music and my life.

Greg 1:06:14

Well, thank you for allowing the curiosity. Thank you for being so open once again. Gosh, I feel like I know you so much better. An acquaintance has uh turned into a friendship.

Jason Gray 1:06:24

Likewise.

Greg 1:06:25

Thanks for spending so much time with me, Jason. Thanks, Greg.