58 | Jenna Riemersma: Moving Toward, Not Fighting Against

For anyone who has ever said, "A part of me wants to ________, but another part thinks it might not be a good idea..." This episode is for you.

People actually ARE made up of many complex parts...it's part of how we reflect the image of God. And a counseling modality know as Internal Family Systems (IFS) that began in the 1980s has helped countless people better understand themselves and how they experience the world around them.

Jenna Riemersma is a therapist who has become one of the world's leading experts in IFS. She is a Certified Sexual Addiction (CSAT) and Certified Multiple Addictions (CMAT) Therapist, and has written multiple books on IFS, including the groundbreaking Altogether You.

Greg and Stacey got a chance to have a conversation with Jenna in which she gave a crash course in IFS - what it is, how it works, and how it helps people understand  and approach all their parts with curiosity and compassion.

Jenna's website

Jenna's books (on Amazon)

Insight Timer app (Jenna has meditations in the app)

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro, Welcome
• 3:29 Welcoming Jenna Riemersma
• 5:49 Jenna's Early Career & Change
• 11:46 What is IFS?
• 20:32 Exiles: Our Burdened Parts
• 27:38 Engaging Parts with Compassion
• 33:59 Curiosity is Critical
• 38:52 How Does IFS Therapy Work?
• 47:00 Speaking to Our Parts
• 54:26 Resources for IFS

Transcript

Jenna Riemersma: 0:00

The typical solution, quote unquote, that our society, our culture tells us to do about this when we get a part of us that gets stuck in an unhelpful behavior or feeling is to fight against it. Instead of fighting against these parts of ourselves, what if we did like Jesus did and we moved toward them with curiosity and compassion?

Announcer: 0:23

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg: 0:36

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. Today's episode 58. It's called Moving Toward, Not Fighting Against. And our guest is Jenna Riemersma. Stacey and I've been really excited and looking forward to having Jenna on the show. Jenna is an expert in the therapeutic modality called Internal Family Systems, or IFS. Many of you probably heard of it. Probably a lot of you have done some IFS work as a part of your own counseling journey. And Jenna quite literally wrote the book on it. The modality was developed by a therapist named Richard Schwartz, and Jenna has done a lot with IFS, particularly in a faith community. She wrote a book called Altogether You, Experiencing Personal and Spiritual Transformation with Internal Family Systems Therapy. Another book called Altogether Us that's been rebranded as IFS Integration, which is how you apply IFS across different modalities of therapy. And then she's got a new book coming out just a little bit after this episode goes up called Move Toward a Simplified IFS Therapy Tool to Welcome All Parts of You. IFS, for those of you who aren't familiar, we talk about it on the episode and you'll hear us say more about it. But the way it was explained to me was somebody said, Well, you know, if you ever had somebody invite you to go do something and you're like, man, a part of me really wants to go because that would be fun. But you know, another part of me knows that I have to get up early tomorrow and I need my sleep, and so I'm I'm really kind of torn. That's not just a figure of speech, but that is actually a process that's going on inside of us. All of us have multiple parts that are active and communicating with us all the time. And they're all trying to do what's right for us, to protect us, to take care of us, but sometimes they kind of are in conflict with one another. And sometimes the parts that are affected by trauma think that they're helping, but they're actually hurting. And it can be very, very helpful in understanding why and how we show up the way that we do to come to understand how these parts came to be and what they're trying to do in us and for us. And Jenna is just about the best person on the planet that we could talk to about that. It's just such an illuminating conversation. And so, if that's something that you have been curious about, if you're like, man, why do I do the things that I don't want to do? Why do I keep in these destructive patterns? I know that it's not good for me, but it just kind of seems like I go on autopilot. Maybe this would be something worth exploring. Jenna was so kind to spend some time with us. She was just getting over being sick, but she was very gracious to give us a lot of time and to help us understand the way that God sees us and how we all model the image of God and the way that He's made us. And so we hope you'll enjoy this episode. Again, our guest is Jenna Riemersma. It's episode 58. It's called Moving Toward, Not Fighting Against. And the conversation starts right now. Jenna, it's so good to have you with us today. Thanks for joining us.

Jenna Riemersma: 3:33

Thank you so much for having me. I am looking forward to our conversation today.

Greg: 3:38

I just am curious about something before we really get started. You've done, I would guess, dozens, if not hundreds, of interviews since you've been an expert in what we're going to talk about today. What percentage of first or second or third questions in interviews typically center around how you pronounce your last name? And did I get it right?

Jenna Riemersma: 3:58

You were spot on, and a hundred percent of people ask me about my last name. I have spent the last 30 years of marriage spelling R-I-E-M-E-R-S-M-A. I pronounce it Ree-murse-Ma.

Greg: 4:13

Yeah. I noticed in a lot of videos that you do, you just introduce yourself as Jenna. So just to make it easier for everybody.

Jenna Riemersma: 4:21

Much easier. Just Jenna. Jenna is good. Yeah.

Greg: 4:24

All right. Well, Jenna, before we get too far into things, I would just love to know what you really want out of our conversation.

Jenna Riemersma: 4:30

You know, Greg, what I would love out of our conversation is for every one of our listeners to walk away with the felt sense of the truth that who they are is good. And all parts of them are truly welcome.

Greg: 4:47

That sounds great. When you say all parts of them, I can't wait to talk about internal family systems or IFS, because I have a story in my head that a lot of our listeners have heard of IFS. They've heard people talk about internal family systems, but haven't really done any of that work, may not know what it is, haven't read books like Altogether You. And so it's going to be a great opportunity for people to know what you're talking about when you say parts, because it's been really helpful for us and a lot of people that we know. So it's going to be a lot of fun. Before we get into that, I just want to have you introduce yourself a little bit more deeply for our listeners, because I was looking at your bio and I didn't know this about you. You were a Harvard-trained policy expert before you do what you do now. And from context, I could have a guess as to what a policy expert does, but I don't know. I'm I'm fairly apolitical. And so, yeah, like what was your life like when you were doing that? And then kind of what led to the change to what you're doing now? We'd just love to get to know you in that way a little bit better.

Jenna Riemersma: 5:54

Absolutely. Well, I used to work in Washington, D.C. on Capitol Hill. My first degree and my first career were in public policy, and I worked a lot with members of Congress and the White House working on uh largely healthcare issues. And then I became a therapist and a CSAT supervisor, certified sex addiction therapist supervisor. And a lot of people said, sounds like the same job.

Greg: 6:23

So I was gonna say the shift the shift made sense because healthcare is fixed, right?

Jenna Riemersma: 6:29

It's fixed. So let's move on to sex addiction because that no problem is there anyway. There's a lot of ties between Washington, DC and compulsive sexual behavior. So it seemed to make sense to me. But now I've had the gift of being a therapist for I don't even know how many decades, and really getting to stand at this beautiful intersection of compulsive behavior, specifically compulsive sexual behavior, betrayal trauma, and internal family systems and spirituality, which has been such a gift to me. And I have seen it be so transformational for so many hundreds of people's lives.

Greg: 7:09

So you said, you don't know how many decades, about what was the point on the timeline when you began to experience this desire to shift over, and you you, I guess, went back to school, right? To to get your counseling degree.

Jenna Riemersma: 7:24

I did. I did. When my kids were in high school and I was 40, and I felt this calling from from the divine, and I said, absolutely not. That's a terrible idea. Who does that with teenagers in the house? And yeah, you can see how how well that argument went with God and with me. So here I am. Yeah, God won. And I'm so glad because I can't imagine having anything that I would love more to do with my life than get to serve in these areas.

Greg: 7:58

Did you have a desire to work with people dealing with unwanted or addictive sexual behavior, betrayal trauma from the get-go, or was that something that once you were on that path became a desire of yours?

Jenna Riemersma: 8:09

Well, I entered into this arena kicking and screaming through my own betrayal trauma experience. And so I was going through in a couple of years into uh my healing journey and started leading groups and started to realize real quickly that I needed a lot more training to understand trauma and the effects of trauma. And so that led me back into graduate school and then on to becoming a CSAD, a CSAT supervisor, and then IFS and the rest is history. Yeah. So I get to really understand this from a lived experience as well as professional, uh sort of clinical experience. And I so appreciate that intersection because it's not just head knowledge for me. Everything that I talk about, everything that I share is something that I've walked and lived first, and then am bringing to others second. And that feels important to me. It's not just theoretical, it's personal.

Greg: 9:13

Yeah. There's just something about knowing that the person you're talking to gets it firsthand that is so comforting. You were gonna say something though.

Stacey: 9:21

I was just laughing about the kicking and screaming. And when we started Awaken, I was like, I would never in a million years have thought this is what I'd be doing. But at what how old were we when we started it?

Greg: 9:34

38, 37. Yeah.

Stacey: 9:36

That was the first time I'm like starting to feel like I'm living the way God created me to live and doing what he called me to do. And it's just bizarre to think out of that ash heap that this would come. So yeah, that's really cool. Yes. How he works.

Jenna Riemersma: 9:53

That's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And I resonate deeply. And I think that your story, your experience is so important to the lives that you're touching. And I know people have shared with me, I'm married 30 years this year, 20 years post-discovery. So we've been in we've been, we've been in this recovery process a whole long time. And I think it is, you know, just as you have experienced, it's so valuable for people to be able to look at you. And and certainly none of our lives are perfect, but to know, like, oh, okay, this the acuteness of the pain will it will subside and I can move through this, and I can heal and grow regardless of where we've been. And that's just a powerful, powerful place of hope. Yeah.

Stacey: 10:46

Yeah. And a lot of the ladies that I talk to and interact with in our, you know, recovery group, they have therapists, but then they'll like meet with me between or when something comes up. And I, because I'm a coach and not a therapist, you know, I will share our story or, you know, what I've walked through more deeply than I know therapists can. And so that's what I feel like, yeah, it's been really helpful to be able to just share more, you know, with them. And I mean, it's I share all of it, like my potty mouth that I got learned. I don't know. But yeah, just and they feel relief because a lot of people that I talk to have grown up in a conservative, you know, environment and like good Christian wives don't do XYZ. And I'm like, wow, you can throw all that out the window for a little bit, you know, you gotta get this anger out and all that. So it's it's I have found it to be refreshing for people. And so I'm like, okay, just let's just be real, you know.

Greg: 13:15

Well, Jenna, I remember the first time that I heard someone explaining internal family systems to me. And I don't remember the exact words that they use, but in essence, it was like, you know, if you've ever been talking to someone and they invite you to a party and you go, man, a part of me would really love to go because it would be fun and my friends are gonna be there. But but another part of me like knows I have to get up really early and get to work, and there's a project, and so I'm really torn. And they're like, that's not just a figure of speech, like that's real. And that was kind of my introduction into what I came to understand as internal family systems. And when people talk about IFS, there are a few names, but really Riemersma and Schwartz are two of the main ones that people know in in the arena. And and I know that there are a lot of people who have heard of it but don't know a lot about it. And I think it would be worthwhile just to spend some time kind of like IFS 101, help us understand what it is.

Jenna Riemersma: 14:15

I love that. I'm really I'm honored, but the name to know is Dr. Richard Schwartz or Dick, as he likes to be called. He about 40 years ago was a family systems therapist, meaning looking at the external family, mom, dad, brothers, sisters, and the idea of family systems is that if you have one person in the family who's dealing with, let's say, an addiction, if you just work with the whole family, the addiction symptoms will dissolve. And he discovered, much to his chagrin, that in fact that was not true. And he was very distressed by that. And he started asking his clients, like, what why is this not working? What's going on inside of you? And every single one of his clients answered in the same way. And they said, you know, there's this part of me that wants to look a certain way so that people will love me and want to be with me, and so it restricts everything that I eat. And then there's this other part of me that is dying for comfort and it eats everything I can get my hands on. And these two parts of me hate each other and they're at war. And the result of that war was the symptoms that the clients were experiencing and was the result. Uh, the result was their extreme distress. And what Dick realized is that not only did all of his clients have the same experience, but so did he, and so did everyone else. And what he ultimately discovered is the same thing, really, that if you look at scripture, what scripture teaches us, which is that we are created in the image of a triune God, which always kind of blew my mind. But basically what that means is one God with three parts. And so he basically discovered we're one person with different parts, and it's completely normal. In fact, everyone has many different parts. Those parts of us make up our unique personalities. So one person might have an organized part, and another person might have a mathematical part, and someone else might have a funny part, and we have all these different positive parts of us that make up our unique personalities. But he also discovered something else that scripture teaches, which is that we also have this fundamentally undamaged positive essence at our core that he called self. Because when he asked people about it, they would say, Well, that's not really a part of me. It's just myself. So he called it self. Of course, in Christendom, many people have a really negative association with the word self.

Greg: 16:59

Yes.

Jenna Riemersma: 17:00

But in Christendom, the what that word means is the image of God. It's the Imago Day inside of you, inside of me, inside of everyone who is walking the face of the earth. It is this undamaged fingerprint of the divine at our core that is designed to lead our inner system of all these different parts. And it is always there. It is always unbroken. It is really the source of what we hear in Galatians 5, that fruit of the spirit that just poofs out of us when we have connection to it. And we have all these different parts, all of which are fundamentally positive. But experiences happen in life, everything from significant traumas like sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect, abandonment, all the way to things like for example, from my life, frequent moves as a military child, bullying and rejection and adolescence, having a sibling who has a significant medical issue or a split in a family. So there are many different things that are in IFS language, we call these things traumas and they burden our parts. So if you think about a part as like a little ball, if you imagine I'm holding a ball in my hand and let's say it's designed to be the positive quality of playfulness. But let's say that if I have a caregiver who is abusive or who is unavailable or emotionally stoic or absent, that naturally positive quality gets covered over. If you imagine I put a blanket that covers over that naturally positive quality of playfulness, and it covers it over with a burden, we would call that a trauma burden in clinical language, that is uh, I'm all alone. There's no one here to help me. And so we lose access to the playfulness that's under that burden, right? And it is in fact the the very image of God, and we hear this in scripture where Jesus literally, in the depending on the translation, uses these words come to me, you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest for your souls. I will help you to unburden and come back to that naturally positive state in which you are. And so, really, the goal of IFS is to help the different parts of us that have taken on painful burdens, painful feelings or behaviors as a result of trauma. Or in Christian ease, it's sometimes referred to as sin, meaning that things are not the way they're supposed to be and our parts become burdened. To help those parts to come to the God image inside of us, to come into relationship with it and to release those burdens and be restored to their naturally positive states. And so, really, if you're thinking about it through a Christian lens, it's a very pragmatic approach to helping us become more spirit-led.

Stacey: 20:12

I listened to your book because I'm not good at sitting and reading, but I drive a lot and I listened a blur, I mean, blasted through it. It was so good, but it's been a while. So I'm just like, yeah, taking it in.

Greg: 20:24

Well, when I think about the when I think about that playfulness that's that's become burdened by the traumatic things, and sometimes we don't even know to call them trauma because they were our normal. It could be, you know, shock or event-based trauma, or it can be that complex developmental trauma that just people don't even know to call it. That gets us to a point of, hey, I may not even have words for it, but I perceive that my needs are not being met, and so I'm gonna do something about it. So, like, what's IFS language or descriptions for when I start to develop those strategies?

Jenna Riemersma: 20:57

Yeah, well, these parts of us that get burdened with these painful vulnerabilities, IFS calls exiles. Yeah, and they're called that because we try to exile them. We don't like the way they feel. Those are the parts of us that carry our shame, our sense of being alone, powerless, terrified. And when those parts of us get triggered and take us over, we lose, they get kind of in upfront. They take over the driving of our bus, so to speak, and we lose access to the God image that's still inside of us. But these parts take us over and we can no longer connect to those qualities that are at our core, but we don't have access to them in that moment. And of course, those vulnerable parts feel very tender whenever we get flooded with shame or you know, terror, or powerlessness. We get other parts of us that take on burdens to try to make that feel better. And IFS really talks about these as protectors because they're trying to protect us from shame. There's the ones who do it proactively that IFS calls managers, and there's the ones who do it reactively that IFS calls firefighters because they're trying to put out the fire.

Greg: 22:09

They kick in the door and they don't care about the damage that they cause.

Jenna Riemersma: 22:13

That's exactly right. So manager parts are all the things like people pleasing and perfectionism and spiritualizing and control and ruminating and all of those types of things. And firefighter parts are burdened parts that engage in behaviors like compulsive sexual behavior, alcohol or drug misuse, binge watching, dissociating, shoe shopping, you know, purging, those types of things, dissociation, self-harm. And so we have these clusters of burdened parts that are all trying to do something about our pain, but when they take us over, they're actually obscuring the God image inside of us. That's the one thing in us that can actually help to resolve the pain and release those negative feelings and behaviors.

Greg: 23:07

When you use the the picture of putting the blanket over the ball that represents the playful part, the picture that came to my mind is people who, like kids who are playing, and a couple of them like wrap another one up in a blanket where they can't move, and it induces like a panic attack. And like when you get in that place, you're blinded. To be able to see anything other than just get me out of here. And you'll start throwing elbows and punching and kicking, not because you're trying to hurt anybody, but because you're literally fighting for your life.

Jenna Riemersma: 23:42

Exactly. And very often these parts of us are at war with each other. So one example that I see frequently in my clinical practice is you might have an individual who has an exile of shame and worthlessness. And so they'll develop some proactive manager parts that have perfectionistic tendencies and a lot of people pleasing and spiritualizing. And by spiritualizing, I'm referring to a burdened behavior going through God, God behavior, God language, God actions, but it is.

Greg: 24:17

Stacey's raising her hand. Stacey, I love it.

Jenna Riemersma: 24:20

Me too, me too. Trying to be good enough for God, trying to get on over there closer to God, get figure out how to get under the shadow of his wings, so to speak, and not get zapped by the by the lightning bolt or the next shoot a drop because you did it wrong. Yeah. That's what I'm referring to as the spiritualizing behaviors versus the flow, easeful, open, spacious, connected, divine sense that comes from the God image inside of us. Those are two very different things. So I might see someone who's got this pack of managers, people pleasing, spiritualizing, overworking, trying to keep those shame and worthless exiles at bay. But at some point, you people please long enough and people just start taking advantage of you. And so then the worthlessness comes up, or you overwork to the point and then and then make a mistake, and then the shame comes up. And so then the firefighters kick in. And very often those are the things like compulsive sexual behavior or self-harm or eating all the cookies. Hello, that's me. Um or dissociating and checking out on Facebook or Netflix for hours and hours or days at a time. And those parts of us are at war inside of ourselves. And the typical solution, quote unquote, that our society, our culture uh tells us to do about this when we get a part of us that gets stuck in an unhelpful behavior or feeling is to fight against it. We say, well, stop it. We say a whole variety of versions of stop it. So we we might say repent or stop it or just get sober, or we we say all kinds of things.

Greg: 26:09

Or if you really loved God, you would, you know.

Jenna Riemersma: 26:12

Exactly. You should pray more. And then that probably you've been spending in the Word. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Are you really how's your quiet time? And so we have these ways of using, otherwise, some of those are helpful things. Like it is good, I mean, some of those are helpful things, but they are offered in with the spirit of fighting against the part, like trying to force it to stop doing what it's doing. And IFS understands that that actually causes more warring inside of ourselves, not less. We say, I'm battling my addiction, I'm I'm gonna overcome my eating disorder, I'm I'm gonna conquer my lust. We we use this very warring language because it describes accurately the battle that's going on inside of us. And if we fight fire with fire, what we get is more fire.

Greg: 27:07

Yeah.

Jenna Riemersma: 27:07

And Jesus really knew that. Jesus was a relational God. He was about getting in relationship, not getting in control. And IFS helps us to live that out where IFS says instead of fighting against these parts of ourselves, what if we did like Jesus did and we move toward them with curiosity and compassion?

Greg: 27:31

Well, and when you say move toward the curiosity and compassion, when you do look in the Bible and you do read things that say, put to death the works of the flesh, right? That is warring language. But when you really look at what it's saying, put to death the works of the flesh. And so if I'm gonna do that, I mean, one one question that I don't think gets asked enough in sermons that I've heard anyway, are so what do you think that looks like? You know, what does it look like to put to death, you know, because in real war, you're not just gonna go out and fight without coming to understand your adversary, right? And so, and and I know that you're saying that the firefighter is actually not our enemy, but but they're doing things that are harmful, right? And so so I think the analogy works the same. We still need to understand why they're doing the thing that they're doing. And it's and it's never for no reason. And so that's the thing I think that you're about to get to. It's so important to come with curiosity and understanding as to how I got to the point where that seemed like the thing that was going to help me.

Jenna Riemersma: 28:37

That's right. And what you're talking about is again, it's different language to describe the same thing. The idea from a Christian standpoint is we're saying, let's get rid of, let's put to death, let's eliminate the bad behavior. What whatever this behavior is that is a burdened behavior. In IFS, we say, could we unburden that that burden and restore the part to its naturally positive state? But in IFS, the way that we do that is through relationship, not through control. And now, a very important thing is to say this is not saying that the behavior is good. It's not saying the behavior is okay, it's not saying it's not a big deal, it's not saying we're not accountable for the burdened behavior that our parts are engaged in a hundred percent. No. What it is saying is the most effective and compassionate way to help that not good behavior transform is through relationship. And it's through relationship with the God image inside of us that offers compassion and curiosity, just like when Christ encountered the woman who was caught in in illicit sexual behavior, and there were a whole lot of religious people who were ready to move against the part of her caught in religious behavior, and they were gonna fight and they were gonna aggress against that to the point of murder. And what did Jesus do? He got down kindly, gently on her level, looked her in the eye, and he said, basically, I see, I see who you are underneath that burdened behavior. And because I do not condemn you, I stand in connection with you and compassion. Go out of the transformation of your connection with me, with my loving kindness, be transformed back to who you truly are. And the non-judgmental, non-shaming, non-condemning nature of that open-hearted connection to the divine is truly transformational. People have those experiences where a connection with the divine, literally where they feel seen and known and safe. We often refer to that as a mountaintop experience, and we we we think that it is so rare because a lot of our kind of faith behavior may come from, at least the way I did it when for many years, was coming out of a burden spiritualizer part that was really well intentioned. Didn't know it wasn't supposed to be doing that, but it was working really hard to like get up at the right time and have the quiet time and say the prayers and do the things and volunteer for the BBS and lead the preschool and do all the things and be a really good person. And that poor little part of me was just exhausted. And it was also super frustrated because those prayers were kind of bouncing off the ceiling and it was feeling really empty and poured out, and it wasn't feeling this deep, rich sense of beloved and different connected and divine and spaciousness, it didn't feel like that at all, and I didn't understand why until I encountered IFS. Well, and now it makes a ton of sense.

Greg: 32:03

Talking about the woman who had been caught using that story from the Bible, the last thing that Jesus said to her that's written down in that story, go and sin no more. When you think about if that is said prior to understanding that coming down, connecting on her level, unburdening her, her experiencing that transformation. I mean, it's either gonna be more of a burden or it's gonna be the natural way that we would live if we've experienced that transformation. So it's either it's either marching orders or it's like, yeah, this is this is how you're gonna be able to live now.

Stacey: 32:39

Well, isn't it amazing the way that I at least grew up hearing go and sin no more is nothing did not give me a feeling in my body, anything close to the way you expressed it. Described how he, you know, was relating to her. That was what hit me. Like, boy, this go and sin no more that I always heard wasn't happening, stressful, yeah. Right.

Jenna Riemersma: 33:01

A lot of pressure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I really I envision that, and I don't know. So filter this through the Holy Spirit, but as I envision an understanding the character of what we read of Christ in the pages of scripture, it more as a like a benediction to this encounter that was transformational. It wasn't like a stop it energy. What I felt was like, now you have come heart to heart and face to face with me, and that has changed who you realize you are now my beloved, be blessed. Yeah, and and go as you stand into who you truly are, it more as a benedictive blessing than as a stop it, stop it. You don't have to do this.

Greg: 33:48

It does sound more like a blessing when you see it that way. So so many of the ways that I know I related to my internal parts were influenced by the ways that other people and I related. That, you know, you can't help but have that happen. Everything that you've been talking about the last several minutes really rubs up against and has a lot of friction with a pretty common thing that we hear from Christians, church-going people who are caught up in this compulsive or addictive behavior. And we start talking about curiosity, and so many times, either from the person themselves or from their partner or the people who've been hurt, you'll hear something like, It doesn't matter why you did it, you just shouldn't have done it.

Jenna Riemersma: 34:33

Right.

Greg: 34:34

And I and I understand the frustration, but it absolutely matters why we did it. Because if we don't understand where it came from, then we're just gonna be signing up for a reset and then a recycle.

Stacey: 34:45

Well, if I can say from my own experience, hearing how you got to where you got was unburdening in some ways because I otherwise you're a monster, you know, who just wanted to do this.

Jenna Riemersma: 34:59

Yeah.

Stacey: 34:59

And that wasn't true at all. So as I was hearing how you got to this and just the process, I it was very helpful. So I think, yeah, I lived it. Like, and then I had to understand my own self.

Greg: 35:10

But can't that even, I mean, can't that reactivity even be a protective part, right? Because if I start allowing you to get curious, then maybe you're going to excuse it and I'm gonna get hurt again. You know, I think uh in reactivity, there's a lot of self-protection going on, isn't there?

Jenna Riemersma: 35:25

Well, there can be, it also can be a trauma response because it is very common, especially in some faith communities, to blame the victim for there to be a lot of blame directed at the spouse who's been betrayed. A lot of language like, well, the wife's body is not her own. And so if you would be more sexual, then he wouldn't have to do this. And blah, blah, blah. There's a lot of gaslighting and a lot of blame shifting that goes on. And so, to some degree, in a traumatized, gas-lit nervous system, that autonomic arousal that says, No, yeah, no, there's not an excuse for this, is an appropriate measure of response to refuse to create what feels like, especially early in the process, an excuse. And it's very important to say to partners and to folks who are struggling with compulsive behavior understanding is not an excuse.

Greg: 36:21

Right.

Jenna Riemersma: 36:22

So it does not, and what we are not asking partners to do is say, oh, let's welcome your compulsive sexual part, your gaslighting part, your raging part, your blaming part, and welcome them. They're good parts trying to help you with pain. No, no, no, no, no. That's we are saying that to an individual about their own parts. Yes, you need to get curious, get in a relationship with your parts to help them unburden because that's how you most effectively take accountability for your own transformation so those parts of you stop harming people. But we are not saying that to partners. We are saying this is what the person did. You deserve to have a full formal disclosure that contains not too much information that's traumatizing and too detailed, but enough to know and grieve your losses and make a wise decision moving forward. You deserve to have time and space to honor your grief. You deserve to have empathy developing from your betraying partner. And everything that you are feeling is okay and is welcome here. And we are not making excuses. What we are doing is offering hope for real transformation rather than just adding to the battle that's eventually probably going to promote a relapse. Because if you try to press a ball underwater long enough, pretty soon it's gonna pop back up. That's right. And that which we resist persists. So if all we're doing to quote get sober from the sexual behavior is try to hold it underwater, that strategy falls short pretty quick. If that's all we're doing, we may have to start there at the beginning of our process just to get sober so we can start to do the work. But that is jacks to open. It's not, it's not enough. Right.

Greg: 38:11

And and that applies to any strategy and not just addictive ones. I I want to just for a second broaden the lens a little bit because you know, you're a sexual addiction therapist, a multiple addictions therapist, you supervise in those areas. Our experiences with addiction, betrayal, trauma, recovery, but IFS is illuminating and helpful and helping people to get in touch with their experience, even if addiction is not a part of it. I mean, this is an approach that can be very resonant and helpful for anybody. And exactly. I'd love to, I mean, there's no way in one podcast episode to give everybody the full you know picture of what it's like, what it looks like. But for people who haven't dipped into what we would call parts work, you know, if they if they were to find an IFS trained therapist, just if if you in a couple of minutes could give us a little bit of an idea of what the visualization and some of the parts work in a session with your therapist might look like, I'd just love for people to begin to get a little taste of that.

Jenna Riemersma: 39:15

Absolutely. The thing with IFS is that for many people it's deeply resonant where you you just kind of have this light bulb moment of, aha, like yes, this makes so much sense. There's many different parts of me, and one part wants to do one thing and another wants to do the other, and there's a battle inside of me. But then the and now what do I do about that can be very complicated. And the IFS therapy is an extended process that has many different steps, and and many people find that a little bit inaccessible. So over the years, I've realized the need for a shorthand tool to help people kind of get a handle on this and and begin to apply these concepts in a in a way that's simple and easy to remember and easy to access. Because when I need it is when I'm triggered, is when I'm feeling anxious, or I want to eat all the cookies, or whatever it is that I might want to do. And I need it in that moment. And so it's got to be short and sweet. And so that's what I wrote my most recent book to offer people. I call it move toward because the spirit of this is to move toward all parts of ourselves with curiosity and compassion. And it's just three simple steps: notice, know, and need. Notice, no, and need. And those three simple steps, they are not the whole IFS process. They don't unburden our parts, but it does help us to get into relationship with our parts and our image of God and to help our parts understand, help help our parts to calm down. So here's an example. We may have a little video for social media. I know most people won't be seeing the video, but just imagine me holding up a heart in front of me, and that heart represents the image of God inside of me. And that's who I truly am. That's who you truly are. But let's say there's a part of me that is burdened with shame. So I have my little round ball. Let's say it's original positive quality of this part of me is playfulness, or how about a sense of worthiness? Let's say that the original positive quality is just an assurance of my worth, just as a human being. But because of life experience, it's gotten covered over with a burden of shame. So let's say I'm going through my day and I make a mistake or you know, think someone's mad at me, and my shame part gets triggered and takes me over. It's now driving the bus, so to speak. It is obscuring, it jumps in front of the image of God inside of me. The image of God is still there, but the shame part is now all I have acting. It's all I can feel. I feel ashamed, I feel young, I feel vulnerable.

Greg: 41:59

Your focus is totally diverted off of your God image.

Jenna Riemersma: 42:02

I don't have any access to it. Yeah. It's still there, but I have no access to it. So when we begin to notice, the key about noticing is noticing this part of me that's triggered, that's carrying shame, but noticing it with a little bit of curiosity, compassion, open-heartedness, or loving-kindness. And when I can begin to do that, this part of me that carries the burden of shame, it starts to what we call in IFS, unblend or settle a little bit because I'm starting to realize, oh, this is just a part of me. Oh, how am I noticing it? Well, I'm noticing it, my face is flushing, my heart is racing, thoughts are going through my head, like I'm such a worthless person. How could I screw up like that? And I can just begin to notice how this part of me is showing up in my body, my thoughts, my emotions, and start to notice it with a little bit of curiosity, maybe a little bit of compassion. And what that does is it helps to create a little separation and blending between who I truly am, the image of God, and this burdened part. And so now I start getting a little more clear-mindedness, a little more curiosity, open-heartedness. Now I can go on to step two, which is no. So from my heart, from the God image inside of me, I can ask this part carrying the shame. What do you want me to know about you? And it's not like I'm hearing voices in my head or talking to myself or anything weird like that. It's just simply we can just offer it in the quiet of our own mind, but like, oh, hey, shame, I see you. What do you want me to know about why you got triggered just then? How how long have you been carrying this burden of shame in my life? What's it like to be you? What do you want me to know about what it's like to have to carry all this shame all the time? And what happens is we just naturally start to get some memories coming up. Yeah. We start to get a sense of something. And when I did this work in my own life, because I do have this part, what I learned is that this part of me had had some really painful experiences of adolescent bullying and rejection, some exclusion, some being in very high pressure situations in a private preparatory school where it was hard for me to keep up active academically. And I just those memories kind of popped into my head. It was kind of the way that the shame was communicating with me in a sense. And so we get to know this part. This is about relationship. This is about connection between the image of God and the part of us that holds the shame. And then when we've learned or heard or gotten a sense of whatever the part wants us to know, we can just move on to that third step, which is what do you need from me right now to feel a little less activated, a little more comforted. Now, notice what we're not asking is what do you need from the world?

Greg: 44:55

Yeah.

Jenna Riemersma: 44:56

Or what do you need from your parents 30 years ago, or what do you need from your partner today, or what do you need from anybody else? We're asking, what do you, part that's carrying the shame, need from me, the image of God, to feel a little more comforted. And we'll be amazed. Sometimes, literally, just the sense of like, you're welcome here. I'm not gonna push you away, or I see you, I understand, or hey, let me just update you how old I am. I'm actually not 11. I'm I'm I'm 55, you know, whatever it might be to help this heart calm down. That's not the whole model, but goodness, in about a minute, notice, know, and need, yeah, what a transformation.

Greg: 45:45

Well, I was just, I'm glad you said something about remind the part of how old you are, because how often would you say our burden parts, there's a youngness or there's a youthfulness because of when the wounds took place? You know, it's kind of like another way of saying it is we've got a part of us that's showing up in child consciousness, but the true self can grow the capacity to stay an adult. Because when children are threatened, like they don't have the capacity to stay curious, right? So we have to help them with that.

Stacey: 46:16

Before recovery, when we would argue, yeah, I kind of lose my mind when I get triggered and uh I didn't have any words for what was happening, but the shame if you had a tone or whatever. And I just always thought, I'm so immature, I'm so not spiritual. I haven't spent all the things we were talking about, I haven't done all the things that would make this not be who I am. But then after getting into recovery and counseling and even knowing that feels young. And so, like I know it every time now. It feels, I feel five or 10 or whatever. And so it's it's been transformative.

Greg: 46:53

Well, Hunt, I was interested just as Jenna was talking about the the three steps and move toward how that's hitting you, because I know that when you started doing IFS work, you really found it hard to resonate with. I think some of it was because you were impatient with the need to slow down and I think this fear of doing it wrong.

Stacey: 47:11

Do I was not wanting to do it wrong? And like, well, what if I don't? I mean, I don't know. You had this whole stage and different people and things, and I'm like, I didn't have any trouble envisioning the boardroom.

Greg: 47:22

I don't know.

Stacey: 47:23

I just I don't know, I just felt like a child, you know. And so I think Pam was just helping me by what how old does that feel? How old did you feel when you were doing that as an adult?

Jenna Riemersma: 47:34

And notice that really you're articulating so beautifully, there were two parts present, at least two parts, probably more. There was a part that was feeling very young, probably in exile, that that was feeling very vulnerable and and was really triggered. And then there was a part that came in that was really impatient in wanting to do it right or doing it perfectly. And that's a protector, usually a manager. And if we could then, if we notice that, we'll just say, great, how do you notice the impatience? How do you notice the desire to do it perfectly? Can you notice that and stay with the noticing until you feel a little bit curious about the impatience? And can you ask the part that really wants you to do it perfectly what it wants you to know about itself? Where did it first learn to try to help you by getting you to do it perfectly? To getting you to do it perfectly fast. What's it afraid would happen if you weren't perfect right away? And does that make sense? Can you just send it a little appreciation? And is there anything it needs from you to feel a little more comforted so that it can just be here with you and and also with this young part? So we just shift the noticing, the notice no need to whatever is present. It can be impatience, I'm doing it wrong, dissociation, distraction, all of those are parts.

Greg: 48:59

And and the common thread in all of this, in order to move toward that transformation that you've been talking about, is we have to slow down. We can't rush through this. And I know that for me, that impatience of gosh, this is just taking too long, you know. And and I I think there's a part of us that know all that knows maybe it's it's it's the the true self that it takes as long as it takes, but man, that's frustrating because we we want quick outcome, we want quick results. But if I think if we're willing to be patient and to slow down and let it take as long as it takes, there's some really beautiful things that can happen.

Jenna Riemersma: 49:39

Actually, Greg, I love that you're pointing that out because the the impatience, the wanting it to happen fast is a part. And so we'd want to be just very welcoming of that part rather than be like, hey, slow down. It's gonna, we just gotta be willing to slow down. Then say, wow, how am I noticing this wanting to get it over with fast? Oh, I'm noticing there's like an urgent energy and like a okay, great. And where do I notice that in my body? And could I offer it just a little bit of curiosity? Could I just let it be here for a minute? And maybe could could I ask it, like, what do you want me to know about why you're so impatient to get through this so fast? What are you afraid would happen if we did slow down a little bit? Generally, the answer to that is I'm terrified that you're gonna be overwhelmed with the grief, the shame, the sorrow, and you will never come up from under it. It will take you down. So let's get her done. And just based on a lot of clinical experience, that's usually what's behind those push fast parts. And usually there's parts that will push back against that. If we do try to do this work fast, other parts will come in to shut it down. We'll get a migraine, we'll dissociate, we'll get hysterical, we will cancel appointments, we will all kind of things will come in to shut that down. If we don't welcome the urgent part, because the urgent part is pushing a lot of different things inside of us. And that's a very, very common one. And I'm deeply compassionate to those parts because they are desperately trying to protect us from the full magnitude of the pain.

Greg: 51:20

And if we come to understand that, I think we can't handle it. If we come to understand that, then all the things they were trying to do, well, no wonder. No wonder they were trying to do all that stuff. Like, gosh, you must be so exhausted trying to hold it all together. Yes.

Jenna Riemersma: 51:34

And usually those parts start to crumble because they are so overwhelmed, they're so exhausted, and they've been pushing us like that since we were very but then when they finally get seen and shown compassion, then is that where the exiles begin to experience healing? Well, that's there's a longer answer to that. But what that what I will say is it's an enormous relief because they don't usually have any awareness that there's a presence there who can help, that it's not all up to them. And what we're doing by developing this inner relationship with the image of God is we are showing these parts that are so frantic, so urgent to try to protect us from the pain. You don't have to carry this. I know when I was four that you had to take this burden on, and I'm so sorry you've carried it since then. And I'm not forcing you out of that role, but if you don't want to have to carry it anymore, I can help with the pain, and you don't have to. And the parts just go, are you kidding? Please, please help me. Because really, they're young, they're scared, and they're exhausted, and they need to know that that divine presence is inside who can help.

Stacey: 52:51

So is the idea it's not that they won't ever do their thing, but it's not about that they don't rise up and try to do whatever it is that they're used to doing to protect, but that we recognize what's happening and we can say, I'm you know, 54 and I I can do this. It's not to get it to not happen anymore, because that's where I go in my head. I'm like, well, it's still happening. What's wrong with me? Yeah, exactly.

Jenna Riemersma: 53:16

And that's and that's a part, um, probably a polarized part, one that doesn't like the part that's doing the thing. And ultimately, when we engage in a full unburdening process or or full trauma resolution work, it can be it what that is not is talk therapy. Talk therapy does not do that. But EMDR, somatic experiencing, IFS, there are many different ways to accomplish that. Ultimately, yes, those behaviors do transform. But the difference is that the God image does not have an agenda to push parts of us out of something that they are holding on to in a panic. It is creating transformation through relationship. And ultimately, the protective parts of us are gonna need to do something until the vulnerabilities that they're trying to protect are healed. So that's why if we don't heal the trauma that underlies the behavior, the behavior is gonna have a really hard time transforming.

Greg: 54:18

Okay, Jenna, you you have been really kind. We're past the time that you that we told you we were gonna take. And so we're gonna we're gonna land this plane. I just want to name that I'm aware of at least two things that could be going on in people as they're listening. I mean, one could be a sense of, wow, that's a lot, you know, and this is kind of overwhelming. And so just what if that's okay? That it's that it is a lot, and it's too much to process. You can listen to this again, you can pick up books that that Jenna and others have written and and take some time with it. But the other thing that I suspect that a lot of people are probably feeling is okay, there's something there, like something, the stuff that they're talking about is waking something up in me. And I would just really want to encourage people listening to pay attention to that part that's saying, okay, you're that's that's what I've been trying to tell you. And so if that's going on right now, I mean, what would be the easiest next right thing for somebody who says, okay, so what do I do with that feeling?

Jenna Riemersma: 55:22

Well, I love that. That was what happened inside of me the first time I heard about IFS. It made my whole world make sense. And it has continued to change my life for the last lot, long number of years. So I try to offer a lot of free resources so that people can actually try this on and experience it. It's one thing to kind of talk about it, it's a whole nother thing to experience it. So if people come to my website, which if you want to try to spell my name, you can go to jenaremersma.com. But for everyone else, you can go to move toward.com and it'll get you to the same place. So I have free guided meditations where I walk you through this. Uh, notice no need with parts that are engaged in compulsive sexual behavior, parts that are triggered, parts that feel anxiety, depression, betrayal trauma. I have lots of different kind of guided experiences there. I've got links to my books, Altogether You, which is about IFS and Christianity, and then my new, my new book, Move Toward, which is that three-step shorthand. And I also have people can access me on Insight Timer. I've got lots of free content on Insight Timer as well.

Greg: 56:35

Well, we'll put all of the links to those resources you mentioned in the show notes. But also if you read some of these, if it really connects and it wakes something up and you want to do more one-on-one work with a therapist and you don't already have one, you can look up therapists where you live that have IFS training. You know, that's a great thing. You look up a therapist website, they're going to show you all the areas in which they've received training and certification. And so you, if this really resonates with what you feel like would be helpful in you moving forward, look for an IFS therapist where you live. And odds are maybe you've trained them.

Jenna Riemersma: 57:11

Well, I do. I have I have two links on my website. One is the Global IFS Trained Directory, so you can search for a therapist there. I've also got, to my knowledge, the the largest Christian IFS therapist directory, and you can search by your state there on my website. So if people are interested in any of those connecting with support in that way, that's available.

Greg: 57:35

Jenna, thank you so much. This has just been amazing to sit and because we heard your voice as you narrated all together you as we listened to that. But just to be able to interact with you live and hear you talk about it, I think it's just going to be so helpful for so many people. So we really appreciate you.

Stacey: 57:49

Yeah, like we win the lottery with so many of these people we get to talk to you.

Jenna Riemersma: 57:54

Well, thank you, Greg and Stacey, for inviting me. It's been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you for the beautiful work that you're doing in the world.

Greg: 58:01

Thank you so much.

Jenna Riemersma: 58:02

Thank you.