55 | Chris McKenna: That's Just a Part of the Gig

The scariest thing about kids and tech isn’t just what they can find—it’s what can find them. Greg & Bobby sat down with Chris McKenna, founder of Protect Young Eyes and president of Better Tech, to map a practical path through the chaos: clear relational scripts, layered technical guardrails, and a mindset that trades “set it and forget it” for steady, confident presence.

Chris breaks the work into two buckets—relational and technical—and shows how the ratio shifts as kids grow. For little ones, lock down devices and avoid exposure; for teens, double down on agency and honest talk. 

We explore the five habits of a tech-ready home (you'll want to get to know these). Chris outlines layered protection—router, device, location, and app—and explains why your router is the most important device you own. If your teen already has social media, you’ll get “ridiculously direct” scripts for sextortion-proofing and an approach that invites confession without shame.

We also touch on policy and the broader movement: how Better Tech equips classrooms and pushes for laws that protect kids and hold platforms accountable. You don’t need a computer science degree to lead your family well—you need small, consistent actions and language your kids can remember when it matters.

#chrismckenna #protectyoungeyes #bettertech #delayistheway #families #parenting #childhoodtrauma #adolescenttrauma #digitalresponsibility #gospel #grace #awaken #awakenrecovery #awakenpodcast #whatwereallywant #wwrw #recovery #connection #conversation

ProtectYoungEyes.com

The Better Tech Project

Transcript

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Opening & Intro

Chris McKenna 0:00

Tossing seeds over a field. You just keep tossing those seeds, those invitations, little drips. They don't have to be complicated. It's driving down the road, stopping at a light, turn on the radio. Hey, if you ever see anything weird, you can just tell me. Light turns green, turn up the radio, keep driving. Like that, that's a porn talk, and you never said porn.

Announcer 0:19

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:31

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. We are continuing our December of giving you an episode each week, and we hope that you've been enjoying them. So, parents who have kids at home want you to know that today's episode is specifically for you. And it's called This Is Just a Part of the Gig. You know, besides questions we get from people about how to recover from their own sexual struggles, without a doubt, the ones that we get most often by far are questions from parents wanting to know how to protect their kids. The amount of tech that's available today is just simply overwhelming for parents. And part of why that is, is because it's always changing. You know, as soon as any parent feels like they're starting to get a handle on what their kids are exposed to, then there's just more and it's new and it's hard to keep up with. Parents are looking for help, and today's episode is with someone who's providing it. Bobby and I had the chance recently to sit down and talk with Chris McKenna. He is the founder of an organization called Protect Young Eyes and the president of another organization called Better Tech. And as you hear him talk, I think you're going to see that his mission in life is to help protect kids from the onslaught of dangerous online content. You know, I think often what parents think they're looking for is a simple kind of step-by-step formula for keeping their kids safe online. And Chris, I think, would say, yes, absolutely, that's a part of it, but it's not the only part of it. In our conversation, Chris is going to talk about the technical responsibilities parents have to protect their kids, but also the relational responsibilities they have to prepare their kids so that they'll make healthy decisions when they're grown and out on their own. We can't just have a mindset of set it and forget it. Instead, Chris says we've got to stay consistently engaged with our kids like the entire time they're growing up. And as he says to parents in the conversation, you'll hear him say this: if you're gonna raise kids in this digital age that we're in, guys, this is just a part of the gig. And that's why we name the episode that.

Meet Chris McKenna

Chris McKenna 2:59

Hey, Greg. Great to be with you.

Greg 3:01

Yeah, Bobby is here too. He and I are really excited to hear about the work that you're doing. Chris is the founder of ProtectYoungEyes.com and the president of Better Tech. I'm gonna get you in a minute to tell us all about those because Bobby, would it be fair to say that in the line of work that we do, we probably don't go a week without hearing from someone in our community of recovery who is a parent asking us questions about how can they do maybe a more consistent job, a better job than was done in their lives. Yes. Absolutely. I know that everybody listening who's got kids or who's planning on having kids or has older kids that they need to make amends with are gonna enjoy hearing from you. So we really appreciate you taking some time to be with us.

Chris McKenna 3:46

Yeah, my pleasure. It's a journey I never expected to be on, but sometimes you look backwards and see how it all fits together, right? So here's where we are today. Yeah, I mean, Protect Young Eyes really came out. I mean, currently I'm a I'm a dad. Not currently, I have been a dad for a long time. Like the two of you, I've got four kids, three sons and a daughter. My daughter's a junior in college, and then I have three boys who are in grades eight, nine, and ten right now. A set of twins who are in different grades, nine and ten, and then kind of 19 months later. So three boys under two was sort of that cluster of fun that we never quite expected. And one of my sons, it's a fraternal set of twins, and one has Down syndrome, the other one doesn't. So there's all kinds of fun going on there in that in that group of four. And you know, like you guys stumbling and bumbling through the digital age trying to figure this out. And they're my guinea pigs. You know, here I am the tech dad. They get to be the ones I practice a lot of stuff on and sometimes get it right and sometimes not.

Greg 4:41

So

Relational Vs Technical Framework

Greg 4:42

well, sometimes getting it right, sometimes not. I know is gonna resonate with pretty much everybody who's listening. And I know, well, I think I could say I I'm confident that I know what a lot of our listeners are gonna want out of hearing the conversation that you're a part of. But Chris, what do you really want out of our conversation today?

Chris McKenna 4:59

Well, I think that there's one, a lot of really practical things that awesome parents can do. You don't need a computer science degree, you don't need a high level of digital IQ. In fact, that's what I come from, right? I'm a CPA by background who the Lord called into student ministry. So I went from 12 years in corporate America, then to seven years in youth ministry, leading a large junior high ministry. When I watched just put technology in kids' pockets, that's sort of the genesis story of Protect Young Eyes, as I watched iPhone 5s hand me down from parents become this prized possession. I had boxes full of Bibles and Coats that kids left at youth group, but they never left me their new iPhone. It was their prized possession, right? And so I watched that. And as a man who, as a young boy, was exposed to pornography and then struggled with compulsive use as an adult and then kicked that monster out of my life through Christ and accountability, then I watched us put that monster back in kids' pockets. So there was this unsettling in me that led to the creation of Protect Young Eyes to prevent more 12-year-olds from becoming me, to be honest. So that's kind of how we got to today. And practical things. And I think that's in an overwhelming, constantly faster-than-ever changing digital world. There truly are things before the weekend, whenever you're listening to this or whatever, real practical things that all of us can do in different layers to create protection around our kids. And so I hope that those listening walk away with that empowerment of, hey, I can do this, this, and this. And I'm going to take a significant step toward protecting and preparing. It's not just bubble wrap because we don't control all the digital doorways. Our kids need to be prepared for certain encounters with friends and others. And I think there's things we can do. We can make some headway there.

Greg 6:44

I just envision people hearing what you're saying and going, yes, oh my gosh, finally. Something practical. Because another thing that we hear, well, now parents of preteens are actually of an age where they grew up around some of this technology, but people a little older than that, there is a huge generational shift in what was available for us versus what's available now. And the one of the biggest things I hear is parents just at a loss. I mean, they they want to do better, but they just don't know what they don't know. And sometimes there's shame involved because they don't want to look stupid in front of their kids. Do you run into that a lot?

Chris McKenna 7:21

I I do. I also think that's the amazing opportunity to approach your children with humility and admission and be like, hey, we are big fans of protecting eyes of digital trust. How do we build digital trust that happens step by step and chat by chat? And we do that by humbly coming to our kids and saying, I don't get this. And we do it by putting all of our digital fears in front of our kids so they don't cause us to not talk. What I don't want is these digital sort of questions and concerns that parents have. I don't want that to cause them to freeze. I want that to cause them to approach their children and to take those and to put the things that they're concerned with out in the light where it has a whole lot less control and just admit what you don't know and then invite them into that conversation so that you can build some of that trust. And I just think those are the opportunities that are not the technical. I think we sometimes believe the lie that we have to understand all the bits and the bytes and the switches and the toggles. And we often talk about solutions that protect young eyes in two big buckets. I'm a big framework spreadsheet bucket guy. I like to take something like the internet and sort of break it down into something tangible. And so we often talk about solutions in a relational bucket or a technical bucket, right? Technical bucket, you put the hardware, the software, the routers, the controls, all those things. And we can talk about that stuff. But honestly, if you start there, that's the stuff that feels overwhelming that causes you just to freeze up and go, heck, I don't know my router. I don't even know where the dumb thing is. And then you quit. And that's why

Healthy Habits for Teaching Kids

Chris McKenna 8:59

we start, you know, we have a five-habit framework, and that's why we start with modeling behaviors, looking in the mirror ourselves and using our tech better. That's why we start with pursuing authentic connection with our children and creating this relational foundation. If you imagine a pyramid with a base that we can build technical solutions on top of. But those are some of the things that I think if we start in the wrong place, it's easy to get overwhelmed and then just throw your hands up and go, ah, I got nothing.

Greg 9:24

Well, I'm already thinking, Chris, about some parallels between the process of parents engaging with their kids on protection and preparation and some of the work that we do with people in recovery. And I want to talk about that later. But before we go too far, I am just interested in hearing you talk about the beginning of this process for you when you were noticing these students who were getting these iPhones and they never left their, they never left their phones behind. Sometimes they leave their Bibles or their sweaters behind. From the time that you realize that this is something concerning until you decided to do something about it, until you actually implemented that something. And then I'd love for you to also just talk about since you started it till today, what have you seen happen and how the ministry has evolved and how you know just the engagement has evolved? I know that's a really complex question, but just would love to hear hear the the journey.

Chris McKenna 10:19

Yeah, for sure. So when I did in business, so I was a senior manager at Ernst and Young, and I was there during the Sarbanes Oxley days. And so my job, Greg and Bobby, I think it's just important. I don't want to talk about kind of boring accounting business stuff, but it's important to understand that my job was to manage risk. I would go into big companies, do assessments of business risk, and then put processes in place that either prevented, detected, or deterred any business risk. Now you can't eliminate all, you just bring it down to a point, mitigate it to a point where it's acceptable, right? That the chance of something happen is at a level that you can accept, right? So put a pin in that for just a minute. So that's my professional background. I'm called into ministry and I love junior high. I've always loved working with junior high kids, and I'm working with them and loving that, just love that age group. They're just awesome and messy and spongy and amazing. And I watched parents now give them these digital devices. Now keep in mind what has happened sort of in the background five or six years before that is I had looked at the monster of pornography in the eye, had seen its destructive force, it almost destroyed our marriage, had come out of that barely, with all the tools I had barely as an adult. And then I watched us put a hundred million choices and a hundred million people into the pockets of 12-year-olds and just hope they get it right. And then get mad when they don't. It was a ridiculous thing that we did in society when you look back at what we did. And so I watched that, and there's just an unsettling me about that. And so I created a close. Actually, what it started off with is I remember our director of adult ministry at the church where I was at saying, Hey, I've got an open night. It was in a staff meeting. I was on staff at the time, right? And I've got an open teaching night. We've got a gap in between kind of this five-week block and this five-week block. Who wants to do something? I raised my hand, I said, Can I talk to parents about porn? Right. And so imagine like back in 2013, 2014. This wasn't something he's talked about in churches, right? And so I did a presentation. Like that was the first thing. I did this presentation in front of parents about pornography. And it was this enlightening moment where I think they're kind of like, wait, we can talk about this? Yeah, we can. And so that led to a closed Facebook group, and that led to 2015 and launching the website. And I mean, since then, I mean, the message has evolved a little bit. Back in 2015, 2016, when I was telling parents to not give kids smartphones and to not give kids social media until at least age 15, yeah, they looked at me as if I had lobsters coming out of my ears because they were still buying the lie of techno positivity that was coming out of Silicon Valley, that everything tech is positive, everything tech is good for humanity. And I didn't have the research, we didn't have what we have today from you know Jonathan Haidt and Dr. Twengi and others, right? But it didn't seem like a great thing for childhood. And so, you know, you fast forward to where we are today. Now we have the evidence. Now we've seen the harms. Now we look back and go, what the heck? in all layers of society. And I point very specifically, the church has missed the boat on this. Like the church has completely disregarded its responsibility to be telling parents once a month in every sermon series to quit giving their kids these devices. There's nothing darkening childhood like these devices. So that's sort of the arc. Um when I look at technology, to me, it was a risk imbalance going back to my professional upbringing. And we inserted an inordinate amount of risk into the lives of children without appropriate mitigations. So my job has been to implement practical mitigations, teach practical ways in which parents can bring that risk of egregious digital harm. We can't, as you said, bubble wrap and prevent all of it, but we can bring it down to, I think, an acceptable level by doing certain things persistently and consistently. And it's always been that way with our kids. I always point back to Deuteronomy 6, 5 through 9, where God said, You want to teach kids about me? Then do things over and over again when you walk and when you wake up and when you lie down, and all it was an algorithm before we knew what it was. And this is the way that we protect our kids today. We mitigate certain risks in the digital age by doing things persistently and consistently. Because if we don't, Dr. TikTok, Dr. You do YouTube, and Dr. ChatGPT is gonna do it for us. So we've got to do it.

Bobby 14:48

Chris, I love how you talked about the the two different strategies. I said that there's what'd you call them the technology?

Chris McKenna 14:55

Relational and technical.

Bobby 14:56

Yeah, technical and relational. I I love that. I know people I run into just uh at church or just in life, and like we'll talk about and they'll ask me questions because they know I'm in this this ministry, and they're like, well, I I put covenant hours on my phone, you know, my kid's phone, or or turned on the the Apple, you know, limit adult website thing, and you know, we should be good, right? So, you know, I I think I think there's a tendency to be like, man, if I if I got all the the technical stuff right, like I don't I don't need the relational part, but I I love that. And I was I I'd love for you to maybe just speak a little bit more like how do you encourage parents to develop that side of it.

Chris McKenna 15:36

Sure, sure. And the two things you mentioned, Bobby, are excellent. So after I left ministry in 2016, I was the digital marketing director for Coveted Eyes for seven years. I love coveted eyes. It's the software that saved me from my own porn addiction. So the things you mentioned there are great.

Part of the Gig of Parenting

Chris McKenna 15:53

So what I would say, and this is gonna seem a little harsh. We want to always be on the side of grace and understanding, but parents and caregivers, let me look at you through the audio for just a minute. If you're going to have children today, this is just a part of the gig. Would you say that again? Yeah. If you're going to have children today, the development of a relationship and the understanding of the technical, no matter how intimidating, is just a part of the gig. That's what comes with parenting today. If you want the outcome of a child who's prepared and protected, that does not come with a set it and forget it set of toggles. This is just what comes with parenting today.

Greg 17:44

Right. Set it and forget it works for some things, right? I mean, you can set up your utility bills, you know, to draft every month because there's going to be consistency there. Or registered chicken. Right. But that's but that's not the case with online technology because it's always changing. And so set it and forget it just doesn't work. I mean, if we think about the things that are common usage today versus even one year ago, we can we could come up with a pretty lengthy list of things that have changed. And so, yeah, the technical part of trying to keep up with that could be overwhelming. But would it be fair to say that although both the the technical and the relational approach are critical, would it be fair to say that the technical serves ultimately the relational? It's going to set that corral in place so that you can make good use of the time and develop because most of their lives, they're not going to be under your roof and they're not going to be under your authority. You know, so you've got a limited amount of time and the preparation and the relational things that we bestow or we're called to bestow. Could you make an argument that those are even more important?

Chris McKenna 18:54

Yeah, no, but I so put a layer of math in there to answer your question. I think that there is an indirect relationship, meaning the younger the child, then the strength has to be in the technical side of the balance because I don't want to talk to my four or five-year-old after they've seen pornography. I simply don't want them to see it at all. Right. And so I'm going to do whatever I can technically. There are some relational preparations that I am talking to my children about things that are shocking, that give them that little Holy Spirit rumbling in my tummy that something's wrong and responding to that because that feeling is your superpower, a radar. Do something with it. Those are some of the age-appropriate relational. But at the end of the day, I have better get the router right. I'd better get the filters right. I'd better make sure everything is connected to the internet, including my device as a parent, because I have inboxes full of especially moms who hand a child a phone to keep them busy and they didn't have a filter on it. They stumble into something. Every device in the house has to be tuned down to the most vulnerable adult in the house. Or sorry, uh, most vulnerable human in the house. Yeah. And I use vulnerable because in my case, my 15-year-old son, although 15 and not the youngest with Down syndrome, is the most vulnerable. Sure. Who has a curiosity that can be weaponized. So the older they get, then you tilt toward the relational. Why? Because you do want them to learn how to have some agency and learn how to manage their technology without you don't have to have filters, which is by something like coveted eyes, which does depend a bit more on the agency and the ownership of my issues to have an ally that I'm open and honest with is a bit more of an older software technical solution because it requires you to have a bit of that maturity. So that's the balance that goes on. So the ratio over time, it shifts. It does shift. And you just again, that's that sort of daily assessment, the daily assessment as a parent to go, where are they in this balance? Are they now at an age asking questions? Do I need to tilt a little bit more this way or the other way? And that's the daily work of digital parenting.

Greg 20:58

Well, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, as your kids are getting to the point of late in high school, they're going to be going off to college soon. You're taking some of the governors off to teach them. Um how to responsibly steward more freedom with technology because earlier when they did when they had less freedom with technology, you were utilizing those as opportunities to get them ready for that. I'm I'm just even thinking about like in those early days that you described where the priority, lock it down, get it safe, protect them as much as you can. Like even joining forces with other great resources out there. Like I think when parents ask me, two websites I give right off the bat are Protect Young Eyes and Defend Young Minds, you know, and and the work that Kristen Jensen is doing with good pictures, bad pictures, and some of those other resources. Because you you rightly said you're not gonna sit down with your four-year-old and explicitly talk about what pornography is. But you can have age-appropriate ways of talking about, you know, bad things or bad pictures on the internet and teaching them what to do, not if they see them, but when they see them.

Chris McKenna 22:04

Yeah, that's right. And I want to just touch on something because of us talking about pornography right now. And I think this is especially true in faith-based

Porn Isn't the Only Danger

Chris McKenna 22:13

settings. I don't exclusively speak in faith-based settings, but quite a few of them are. You know, a lot of Christian parents get the porn thing right. We know that's a problem, and we address that, talk about that, and deal with that. What most Christian parents underestimate is the list of a hundred other mature things that I don't want a child to experience. And this is why we completely underestimate an application like YouTube. If we think that YouTube, right, in restricted mode has kept porn away from them, that's probably true. But there are so many other things that I do not want a child to experience, right? Let's use a recent experience, right, with happened with Charlie Kirk. That's not pornography, but how many elementary and middle school children were instantly through an algorithm exposed to a horrific video that they didn't choose that just popped up, right? An unsimulated video of a person being murdered. That's right. And and not there, there wasn't a porn filter that was going to stop that, right? That's an algorithmic preference based on what people were clicking on. And so we've written a post called Too Much Too Soon. There's all kinds of things related to money and divorce and relationships and situations and stress and fights and violence, especially with the boys. If an application knows that there are boys using it, violence is going to be pushed into their feed because they know that's what's going to create some curiosity. These are the other things that I think we completely underestimate in terms of its impact on the psyche and mental well-being of a child.

Greg 23:49

I'm thinking more about just various experiences with vulnerability among our kids. And you you said we're we're talking about porn, but there's so many other things that we don't want them seeing. I I'm just thinking about how tragic and how destructive cyberbullying is. And, you know, if you talked about delaying our kids' experience with social media, and it it seems to me like keeping up with appearances, keeping up with cultural, what what culture tells you is beauty, but also just direct cyberbullying. I mean, we're reading stories all the time about people, about young people falling into depression, in many cases taking their own lives because they got into social media unprepared, too young, and just the the bullying was was incessant.

Chris McKenna 24:45

Well, and now let's because we talk about the things we say in our talks that we do with students. And so we have

How AI is Affecting Vulnerable Kids

Chris McKenna 24:54

we talk about the things we say, the things we share, the things we see, and the things we stand for. Those are sort of the four categories that we prepare kids for when we talk to kids six through twelve, grade six through twelve. But on that, say, so yes, we have the things that we are saying digitally. It could be through text, it could be through comments, it could be through cyberbullying. But now we've added to our presentations what is it that AI is saying to us through AI companions, that other direction, it's not us to the tech, it's the tech to us. And it's not bullying, but there's like coercion and other ways that we've seen young people who have died by suicide as a result of interacting with an AI chat bot that didn't stop them, that encouraged them. That when a young man named Adam was talking about what should I do with this news? Should I show my parents it told him not to? These sorts of sort of tack to us interactions now in terms of the conversations. It's this whole new realm that, yes, bullying, but kind of expand that to just digital interactions that we need to prepare our kids for and we need to guard them against at the same time.

Greg 26:06

Yeah, because with a standard web search, we know that they're often getting bad information, but with AI, they're getting bad advice that feels like it's coming from someone real.

Chris McKenna 26:17

It really does. And that's that's a really important statement that you just made there, Greg. So social media was coming after our attention. And the problem with social media is that it connected us to everybody. So it was the issue of shallowness that came from, or loneliness that came from a shallowness, right? The problem with AI is that it's not coming for our attention, it's coming for our affection. And it's not trying to connect us with everyone, it's trying to connect us with it. It's a loneliness of isolation that is going to come because there's nothing that that AI can provide that an embodied experience can't do better. We're embodied creatures, we should be with other human beings, and yet it's masquerading in the same way that pornography masquerades as you know, intimacy. We have AI masquerading as an artificial intimacy through, you know, relationship that it's coming fast. It's coming fast for the hearts of our kids.

Greg 27:15

I'm thinking about parents listening to this who, if they sat down with you for five minutes, Chris, and heard the passion with which you talk about this, would in my mind, I'm thinking they would say, Well, of course I want to do that for my kids. And yet so many parents aren't doing that for their kids.

Reasons Parents Don't Engage

Greg 27:34

And so when there's a disconnect between what they would say they want to do and I think what they really probably do want to do, but they're not doing it. There are some explanations that would possibly explain that. I mean, one is they don't care about their kids. I I think that would be the minority, right? I think it is. Two, they're so bound up in their own brokenness that they don't have the capacity to do it, which, you know, I mean, your first habit of the five is model the right behavior. So, you know, do your own work so that you can help your kids. Number three is I guess burying your head in the sand. Well, I I I I don't see any evidence of it. And so I'm just gonna hope it's not happening to my kids. I mean, and maybe a fourth is just being so overwhelmed that it just kind of paralyzes or cripples people. There may be more explanations than that that you could come up with, but I think those are pretty good. Yeah, just kind of using those as some of the experiences that might be keeping parents from doing this. Bobby, I I'd love to get you to talk for a second because you've shared with me over the past few years your three sons and some of the conversations that you've had because I I feel like you really have engaged more than is average, partially because of your own story, partially because of what you do for a living, but and partially because you love your kids. But you've got one in college and two in high school. You know, what what have some of those conversations been like?

Bobby 28:52

Yeah. And I I've actually been sitting here thinking about that, I guess you've been sharing, because I do think I have engaged my kids more, definitely more than I was engaged, definitely more than probably I would guess the average parent. And and yet the conversations I have are still gonna be awkward. You know, it's like I I was just yesterday, I was right, I was driving my my youngest son, he's he's 14, and just started asking him some questions and kind of sharing a little bit about my own story and just trying to get him to talk. You know, he's I can tell he's just kind of sitting there like, I don't want to talk about this, you know. And so it's I you know, and so the I guess when I was hearing you list those things, I almost feel like just fear of awkwardness may be another one of those, you know, things that keep parents from doing it. But you know, I as I think back to my my oldest son, so he's a freshman in college now. And the we st we did, Chris, basically what you have been talking about. Like we started, we we didn't give him a phone until he was a freshman in high school. And when we did, it was, I mean, literally just a phone with the ability to text. And like we slow, you know, that was it. It wasn't it was an iPhone, but it was like everything was blocked and kind of started to build up some of that trust. We eventually, you know, we let him have a few apps like ESPN and and then eventually, I guess when he was maybe like a junior, we let him have Safari and got Covenant Eyes on there. And but it's been that relational part of it, like that we've been really trying to develop. And and it's been really cool to see how now as a as a 18-year-old freshman in college, you know, he's out of the house. We have you know, over time, because allowed him to be able to make the decisions now of what he has on his phone. And but it's but it's but the conversation is still there. Like we're still having conversations with him. You know, I I you know I he still has covenant eyes on there, and and you know, we'll I'll talk to him about stuff. But where's the awkwardness level now compared to when you started? Oh man, it's for with it with him, it's it's barely awkward at all. I mean, there's still a little bit of it there, but you know, talking to him compared to my my 14-year-old, it's I mean, it's a world of a difference. And so it's just been cool to see how we've been able to keep that conversation going with him. And now we've I guess empowered him or invited him to to make those decisions, like what's blocked, what's not. Like he he actually and he never had social media. And and I remember him talking about it with them when he was like still in high school, and he was like, I don't he's like, I don't miss it. He's like, you know, yeah, I and now that I know that maybe that may be a gender thing. I know I think I feel like girls are probably a little more to feel like they're missing out on social media, but with my son, like because he never had it, he was just like, I he's like, I don't care about it. And he actually now has to get it for his major. And so that was kind of an interesting uh so he was he has to get in. He's reluctantly using social media because he has to for school.

Greg 32:12

How many stories do you hear like that, Chris, of people who saw the flip-flop? I mean, you talked about the ratio of what the focus is changing, but I mean, parents who have stayed in it and went ahead and engaged when it was awkward and are seeing like how long does it typically take to see the payoff and just how our kids benefit from us doing some things that they're not gonna love at first?

Chris McKenna 32:34

So I wanted to, I'm really glad for that question, Greg. I want to press into that word awkward for a minute that you shared, Bobby. I think it's really important.

Embracing the Awkward, Seeing the Payoff

Chris McKenna 32:43

I think the payoff can, you know, be quick and long. And I want to kind of share a little bit of both. So after one of my parent presentations, I had a mom come up to me, Bobby, and she said, you know what, Chris, we took your advice. She had seen other things that we had done. And she said, Yeah, I was literally in the kitchen stirring soup. My back was to the kids. And when they get their homework done, they're usually kind of hanging out in the kitchen around me. It's sort of a place of gathering. And I was stirring soup, and I just sort of said out loud, hey, if you guys ever see anything that makes you uncomfortable, anything that's sort of weird or crazy, I just want you to know you can tell me. And that's it. And she just kept stirring soup, right? They didn't applaud, she didn't have a PowerPoint, she didn't have research, she was just stirring soup. Yeah, and she kept the story going. And she says, Chris, fast forward three weeks, she was tucking her 12-year-old daughter into bed who heard this while mom was in the kitchen stirring soup. And you know, those are key times. I talk about car time, meal time, together time, and bedtime. Those are prime times where you're just looking and listening and being observant in those captive audience moments, right? And I've always been the bedtime parent. So the rest of this mom's story resonated with me. And she said, I got up to leave, and my daughter said, Mom, wait, you said I could tell you anything, right? Wow. And her daughter had seen something on the Chromebook, and all mom did while stirring soup was crack open a door that said, You can land safely and softly with me. And so, like tossing seeds over a field, you just keep tossing those seeds, those invitations, yeah, little drips. They don't have to be complicated. You drip them throughout their lives during that car time, meal time, together time. It's driving down the road, stopping at a light, turn on the radio. Hey, if you ever see anything weird, you can just tell me. Light turns green, turn up the radio, keep driving. Like that, that's a porn talk, and you never said porn.

Greg 34:35

I think, Chris, that is so important because I think that if we're talking about polar opposites of the spectrum, if one of them is never say anything, then the other is like force or coerce these just tooth pulling conversations, like, have you ever, you know, no, tell me, tell, and just like feeling like they're in the Spanish Inquisition. And what you're talking about is setting a table. What we as parents can do is we can set the table, but no matter how much we may think that we can control our kids' behavior, we have far less control than we think we do. We can't make them sit down and take up that invitation. But the story that you told about the soup stirring mom, I'm just thinking that from the time she said that, and how long uh later did you say it was that her daughter asked her? It was a couple weeks, two to three weeks. So I'm just picturing for two weeks, her daughter is remembering that, replaying it, and doing the calculus to decide whether or not she believes that it will be as safe as mom said. But when she was ready, she said something. And I think that's that's something that parents need to grab onto, is that it can be very time delayed.

Chris McKenna 35:47

Yep, you're exactly right. That's that's the don't you don't know when we just have to keep doing our part. I I sometimes say, you know, for the things that you want your kids to know about technology

So Often They Roll Their Eyes

Chris McKenna 35:59

or things you want them to do, say it so often, they're rolling their eyes and finishing your sentences. Like that's that to me is the divine algorithm that God sets up for us in Deuteronomy 6, 5 through 9, where he says, do it here and there and here and there and here and there. It's like I want them to be a bit annoyed that you're saying it again. Then you know you've said it enough.

Greg 36:22

They'll be so for the most part, it they'll be very glad later. Bobby's heard me tell the story a whole bunch of times. My son, who's 27 now, uh, in the early years of my own recovery, you know, I just really was wanting to talk to him about these issues more than I was taught to, more than most people get talked to. And we would go out to breakfast sometimes on a Saturday, and we'd go down to McDonald's and just sit down and have breakfast and talk. And one Saturday morning I said, Hey, buddy, you want to go down to McDonald's? He goes, as long as we don't have to talk about masturbation. And I'm like, deal, we'll just eat our McGriddles and we'll talk about something else. But something else.

Chris McKenna 37:02

Yeah.

Greg 37:02

Yeah. But we had talked about it enough times to where he knew if that was something that he needed to talk about, it was not taboo.

Chris McKenna 37:10

That's perfect. That is a that is a prime story. I love it.

Greg 37:14

So I'm looking right now at your website, and I'm looking at the five habits of a tech ready home, and they make all the sense in the world. I'd love to just read them and have you talk about them a little bit. And then with the time we have left, I'd love for you to tell parents about some of the resources and helps and tools that they can find at Protect Young Eyes, and then get you to talk a little bit about better tech. But the the five habits are model the right behaviors, pursue authentic connection, encourage work and play, delay

The Five Habits of a Tech-Ready Home

Greg 37:44

all addictive tech, and diligently prevent harm.

Chris McKenna 37:48

And we hook a lot of real, those are high-level principles that we hook a lot of real practical implementations to, right? So you take model the right behaviors. We ask parents to enjoy the sweetness of doing nothing, showing our children the sweetness of doing nothing. That means we don't check our phone at the stoplight. That means we don't always go through the self-checkout. We actually go through the checkout where there's a teenager that you can talk to while they're checking you out with your groceries to show them human-to-human connection. Micro moves that we can make as parents to show them the power of interacting with other human beings. We have to do that ourselves. Little things, not massive life change, just little things. Quit taking your phone into the bathroom, mom and dad, that kind of stuff. Okay. Because it's also kind of gross. It's also kind of gross, right? Another example of model the right behaviors is to post with their permission. So if you're going to take a photo of your child, make sure they know who you're sending it to and you have their permission to send it. If we're going to get them to appreciate the value of photos of their classmates or what to do when they see a photo being misused, being passed around, we have to recognize that every piece of digital media of other human beings is valuable. It's an image of them, and we need to model that by showing them that we respect photos of them and who we share them with. And, you know, Greg and Bobby, we're just at a time that I'll tell almost any parent who will listen to me. We share in 2025, when we're recording this now, and you may listen to it later, it'll be even worse then. We share photos of our children with as few people as possible and as few places as possible. That's just where we are today. I just want us to be really careful with that. So just giving you some examples of some of the practical pursue authentic connection. We have a lot that we talk about related to the conversations. We've covered a little bit about that with the story about soup and other ways that we build those bridges of digital trust. Encourage work and play, fairly self-explanatory, but chores are a huge predictor of future life success and grit and diligence and perseverance. And then the delay and addictive, this is not anti-tech. We're all about delay is the way, which is a slow tech strategy, not a no-tech strategy. So my 15-year-old son, you know, you're talking about your son not having social media, you know, Bobby until now forced to have it in college, but you know, my 15-year-old doesn't, but he knows how to code in Python. Like he's a techie kid who doesn't have addictive algorithmic technologies in his life. It's productive. And that yeah, that also means, though, that we have to tap into the power of collective action, which is on us, meaning that if I also want him to be somewhat connected to his friends, I, as the parent, have to do the hard work of reaching out to parents of his friends to define what communication looks like, that it's not going to be exclusively through social media, that there's going to be this group text that they maintain as friends as a way to stay in touch. That's my hard work as a parent to allow him to stay connected without inviting him into these harmful technologies. And that's the power of getting other parents on board with you. And then finally, the layers of protection and the diligently prevent harm. That's the relationship. We could talk for a half an hour about routers. I love them to the point where people roll their eyes when I talk about them, but they're so important. And then what we have at the device layer by having phones like Gab and Bark and software. Devices we talked about coveted eyes and others that are so critical. And we then get out of location is another layer. We don't want kids using devices in certain places like bedrooms, bathrooms, buses, right? These kinds of places. And then the final layer is the app layer, right? YouTube has controls, Snapchat has controls. They all suck, but we use them. That's why they're at the top of the pyramid and not the bottom where relationships are. So that's how we prevent the harm is with multiple layers of protection. So you can see you just got like a 90-minute presentation that we give to parents in 90 seconds.

Greg 41:40

Yeah.

Chris McKenna 41:40

Try to boil it down to the practical from the principal so that parents can do those things before the weekend. That's what I'm saying.

Greg 41:46

Well, it makes me want more. I mean, it makes me because I'm I'm realizing some of the things you said, these five habits, there's a very overlapping Venn diagram that I'm seeing in my brain because some of them have a lot to do with each other. I mean, you talk about model right behaviors and then but pursuing, and you use the example of not using the self-checkout, but going to the one where you can actually talk to a human, that's also a form of pursuing authentic connection. You know, and so in doing one, you're doing the other. And I bet you at the beginning of a conversation about digital protection and safety and integrity, how many people are going to think about don't use the self-checkout? I mean, just things that are connected and are part of a bigger picture, those are the things that I think parents are hungry for. And many don't have the capacity to think of and make those connections on their own. And so that's why it's so such a blessing when somebody like you in an organization like yours has done a lot of the heavy lifting prep work for them.

Chris McKenna 42:48

Well, I I appreciate that. And and praise God. So I've actually written a book that will come out in 2026 that covers all of those habits in great detail. And so I hope that parents will be able to check that out and use that as a guide for them going forward.

Greg 43:03

That's exciting. When in 26 is it going to hit?

Chris McKenna 43:05

June. June of 26, just in time for summer readings.

Greg 43:08

Oh, that's fantastic. Well, we won't hold your episode until then, but we'll make sure to mention it again when it comes to the Chris.

Bobby 43:16

Real quick, as as as I hear you list out these things on the website that we were looking at and just talking about you know the healthy habits

Going to Ridiculous Measures...Advice for Parents

Bobby 43:25

that parents can develop in the in the home. What would you say? And I got teenagers now and they've had phones for a while and they're, you know, they're doing all the things that you're I'm sitting there going, oh my gosh, like this is overwhelming. How do I start to do it now? What would you say to a parent that's in that position?

Chris McKenna 43:50

Yeah. Yeah, there's you know, three types of parents, probably listening to this, those that are still in front of it, where when I say delay is the way, you're like, yes, I'll keep doing that. And I would say, yes, hold the line. You have other parents who are in a spot where technology is being destructive in some ways, you actually have to just take it away fully. That's a whole different situation. And we have a sort of a system to detox in that way. But what you're talking about is even the what I'd call the, you know what, my kid is at social media for two or three years and I'm not gonna take it away. Is there anything I can do to still take care of some of the things that you're talking about? So, what I'll point back toward, Bobby, is my example of risk. If you've said yes and you're not gonna take it away, you have to recognize that you've said yes to a certain amount of risk in the life of your child. If that is true, then what you have to do is do certain ridiculous things to mitigate that risk. And I'm using the word ridiculous in very intentional ways. That means you have to become ridiculously frequent in the conversations you have about things. You have to be ridiculously direct by looking at that 15-year-old son who's had social media for two or three years. And maybe at night when he's listening and just a little more open as a dad, you put your hand behind his head and look at him and say, Hey son, there are people out there that are going to try to come after you. Have you heard of sex tortion? AI cannot make anybody look like anybody. If you ever find yourself in the middle of the night, in the middle of trouble, and you just don't know what to do, you can come to me. Like that is a ridiculously direct. I mean, you could go as far, and I'll say something a little offensive on your podcast for a minute, but I want his attention. You just look at that boy and say, dude, let's agree right now, father and son, that you're never gonna take a picture of your penis and send it to somebody else. Like get his attention, have that direct conversation. That's what I mean by ridiculous, not in an offensive way, but these are the things that mitigate risk in the middle of a yes to elevate the relational side of things in a way that I think you bring the risk down where it's acceptable, even though they've had it for a couple of years.

Greg 45:53

So can you see exactly your example and raise it to say, let's agree you're never going to take a picture of your penis and send it to anyone. But if you ever do, and then you find that the person that you send it to is extorting you now, then just I want you to hear me saying, you can come to me. I won't shame you, I won't reject you, we will get through it because there are young boys who are taking their own lives because they think that there's no way out. And so take the steps and have the conversations with ridiculous specificity to try to encourage prevention, but also say there's no step, no distance you can go that there's no way back. You can always come back.

Chris McKenna 46:38

Love it. Yep, absolutely. That's again, that's what if you're gonna say yes, that's just what comes with it. I mean, if you don't, you just have to know that the risk hangs out up here. Where, and I'm I'm friends with the Demay family. I talk to John all the time, the father of Jordan Demay, the young man here from Michigan who died by suicide through Instagram, horrible story. You know, but that is real. That's real stuff. So yeah, great example.

Greg 47:04

Scrolling through your website, you've got a lot that parents can get for free. I'm just looking through your free downloads page. You can download PDFs

Resources from Protect Young Eyes

Greg 47:13

with step-by-step guides for my kid sent a nude, my kid received a nude, my kid is being sextorted, social media readiness, Snapchat setup guide, smartphone readiness. I mean, I could keep going. There's so many of them, and those are free. But then even the five habits you've developed into a course for parents, and this is the stuff that you speak on, they can get the entire course for 200 bucks.

Chris McKenna 47:38

They can. I mean, I've been told I give away too much, but that's okay. I'm I'm good with that.

Greg 47:44

We've been told that too.

Chris McKenna 47:45

Yeah, yeah. You know, I that's the missional side of all of us here. And so, yeah, and that's where, you know, there's levels of help here. If you're big on self-help, I think you can see that between our app guides, our device setup guides, if you want to self-help your way through stuff, awesome. If you want to go just even one step above that, but below the course for 12 bucks a month, we have a subscription tech support community. Think of Geek Squad like support called the table. You used the table as an example earlier, where I've hired a woman who's super technical, stay-at-home mom who homeschools, but has all this awesome knowledge about technology, who is my community manager, who will then walk parents through some of this stuff to set up their router, to have the conversations. I'd call that kind of step two. And then, yeah, if you want to go through the whole course, which is what we do live in our talks around the country. So, you know, kind of pick your spot. We want to meet parents, you know, wherever they're at with whatever confidence they have.

Greg 48:40

So amazing. As we get ready to wrap up, Chris, sometimes at this point in the conversation, I ask the guests, okay, is there one more thing you want to make sure people hear? I I can't imagine that there's anything important that you haven't already said because it's all been so critical. But if maybe let me put it this way if all the stuff that we've been talking about for the last 45 minutes or so is just feeling at this point overwhelming, that's not the intent because especially in the last few minutes, we've tried to present, like, hey, here's a place where you can go and make it less complicated. But say for people who are feeling overwhelmed, maybe going back to the way you answered Bobby's question, but again, for the parent who's getting flooded, how would you talk them off the ledge and say, here's the next right thing?

Chris McKenna 49:28

So it's just two steps. And we do this at the end of our talk because I know they feel like they've drank out of a fire hose for a little bit of time. Before the weekend or before 48 hours is passed from whenever you listen to this, make sure all of your children you square up and look at them, give them your full attention, and just say, whatever happens to you in the real world or the digital world, you can always land safely and softly with me. One sentence. If you have capacity for a technical step, that's a relational step, then get the router right. Like that is the most important digital device in your house. We've made it step by step. Follow this guide, our ultimate router guide, read through it. If you don't know what a modem versus router is, we explain everything. And I talk about what I do in my house. So if you only get one thing right, get that one relational sentence right.

Greg 50:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3 50:22

And then say it so often they're annoyed. If you need one technical thing, that's the one technical thing to do if you still have energy for it.

Greg 50:30

And if you don't feel like you've got the expertise or the capacity, but you want to do it. If you have a church that or connected to a Christian school that's got an IT person, call that person and say, Hey, can you help me come and do this to my router? Because I it needs to be done. I don't know how to do it. I mean, ask for help on that kind of thing.

Chris McKenna 50:48

Absolutely. And maybe even circle it back around. Here's how you turn a technical problem into a relational opportunity. Find a seventh grader, maybe your child, and say, I've got this box with this thing in it. It's called a router. I don't know what to do with it. And have them help you explain why. Now you have this opportunity to explain. Why do we have a router? Well, man, amazing child of mine is sort of like a filter on the water, or it's like a lock on the door. We're keeping the poison, the junk out. This is for all of us. It's not just you. Dad doesn't want to see this junk either, right? And then when they walk away, change the password. But you've had this opportunity to create digital trust relationally through this confusing technical thing that they figured out for you. They've felt good about it. They understand the why. You've got it all set up. This is a win-win-win all around, even for that thing that we don't understand technically.

Greg 51:41

So yeah, and you've honored the fact that they have a skill that you don't have and that you know that it can be used for good, and that they've got something to offer adults. I mean, that's that's life affirming. Yep, exactly. Chris, ProtectYoungEyes.com is the organization we've been talking about, but you also are the president of BetterTech. How does

Wrapping Up & Thanks

Greg 52:04

that differ in what you do, what the focus is, or just maybe it supports Protect Young Eyes. What why are there two organizations? And what would you tell us briefly about Better Tech?

Chris McKenna 52:14

Yeah, sister organizations think about Protect Young Eyes, equipping families in the homes and working with school leaders to create systems of protection at schools. Think of Better Tech in terms of what we do to equip students in pre-K through 12 to use tech better. We want us to find better ways at all those ages and stages to use it. The other part of Better Tech is the policy work that I do. So if you think of what humans are we serving on the Protect Young Eye side, we're serving educational leaders, you know, pastors and church leaders and parents. On the Better Tech side, we're serving students, but I'm also serving legislators. In fact, I spent all morning before this conversation reviewing, editing, and providing feedback to attorneys on policy related to app stores and keeping kids safe with laws. So that's another part of what I do, kind of borrowing from that experience with policy and what I used to do back in business, but I've authored and testify and do whatever I can, mostly at the state level, to pass policies that not only honor parents' rights, but also then hold accountability for companies not to be releasing technologies that are causing egregious harm. So that's all on the better tech side in terms of the laws that we're working on.

Greg 53:27

So I'd love to hear you talk about that. Chris, you've kind of invented a wheel so that every parent out there doesn't have to reinvent a wheel. Thanks for all the effort and just your life that you've poured into that. We we know what it's like to pour your life into a cause. And some days it's energizing and some days it's draining. And so, yeah, just accept our gratitude for what you do. I mean, as parents, and I'm a grandparent, you know, of a kid who's almost four. I I'm really thankful to see the fruit of work like yours showing up in the lives of people that I love and care about. So thanks so much for doing what you do. Well, thank you both.

Chris McKenna 54:05

I love this conversation. And for those listening, just come our way. Don't wait another day if you're worried about something. We'll do our best to help.

Greg 54:13

Chris, thanks for talking to us.

Bobby 54:14

Thanks, Chris.

Greg 54:15

Yeah, really appreciate your time.

Chris McKenna 54:17

My pleasure.