54 | Karrie Garcia: The Brain, The Body, & The Bible

Anytime we can encourage people in caring professions we love to do it! If you walk with, pastor, or counsel people going through hard times, this is a conversation you're going to want to hear.

Karrie Garcia is a pastor, life coach, and author who inspires change in others by boldly sharing her journey to freedom. She has seen firsthand how God’s true redemptive purpose for our lives does not begin once we’re free from pain, rather it stems directly out of that pain.

Since 2014, her nonprofit Freedom Movement has offered people the chance to process and heal on the road to freedom through offerings like workshops, certificate program and one-on-one coaching.

By learning how spirituality and the body (particularly the brain & nervous system) are impacted by trauma, we can be more confident that the help we provide is truly helpful and addressing not only surface symptoms, but more importantly what's going on under the surface. Healing and freedom involve the brain, the body, and the Bible.

#karriegarcia #freedom #freedommovement #freeandfullyalive #neuroscience #storywork #connection #counseling #caregivers #spirituality #growth #change #therapy #healing #trauma #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Karrie Garcia website

Freedom Movement website

Free & Fully Alive (Karrie's book on Amazon)

Chapters

• 0:00 Clearing Sobriety Myths And Naming Desire
• 0:24 Show Open And Guest Introduction
• 1:49 Why Karrie’s Work Matters To The Church
• 3:29 Todd Fields On Meeting Karrie
• 5:22 Grief, Hope, And Shared Calling
• 6:59 Introducing Karrie And Episode Theme
• 8:24 Karrie’s Story: From Addiction To Integration
• 11:24 Not A Spiritual Defect: Understanding Trauma
• 14:01 Miracles, Brain Science, And Real Change
• 17:02 Beyond Sobriety: Shalom And Identity
• 20:05 People Pleasing, Kindness, And Core Needs
• 23:12 From Doing To Being: Reality And Honesty
• 25:58 Why Leaders Need Three Lenses
• 28:10 Global Trauma, Isolation, And The Brain
• 31:02 Rethinking Church: Connection Over Information
• 34:08 Regulated Leadership And Better Conversations
• 37:10 Pedestals, Repair, And Pastoral Honesty
• 40:10 Culture Of Repair And Real Accountability
• 43:00 Gatekeepers, Worship Leaders, And Movement
• 45:20 Free People, Free People
• 47:10 Where To Start: Book, Podcast, Training
• 49:05 Final Definition Of Freedom And Close

Transcript

Karrie Garcia: 0:00

To live a free and fully alive life is what we all desire. And getting off drugs is so, I mean, it's great. I'm glad I got off drugs, but oh my gosh, that does not give me the fully alive life that I'm wanting. I want integration. I want that to happen. Getting off drugs didn't do that for me. It cleared the pathway so I could think more clearly and understand why it was doing it. But it's not what's wrong with me, it's what happened to me.

Announcer: 0:24

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg: 0:36

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. This is episode 54. It's called Freedom is the Presence of God in Your Pain. And our guest is Carrie Garcia. Carrie is a pastor, life coach, author, and CEO of Freedom Movement. And you're going to hear more about the great work happening in Freedom Movement during the conversation. Can't wait for you to hear it. Carrie is someone who is so passionate about bringing biblical care and trauma-informed care together. You know, for over a decade, she's been training all kinds of people, specifically many, many pastors and ministry leaders, on how to better understand the things that are going on in the lives and particularly, most importantly, the things going on under the surface of the people that they're pasturing, shepherding, and counseling so that they can care for them much more effectively. Stacy and I got a chance to hear Carrie speak when we attended the REST retreat in October, and that was a retreat put on by Worship Circle and our friend Todd Fields. Todd was the one who introduced me to Carrie. And so to kick off our episode, I have asked Todd to hop on with me to talk about Carrie and why this is going to be such a great conversation.

Todd Fields: 1:48

Hey, Todd. Here we are. I'll bring up what I can, Greg.

Greg: 1:53

Well, I'll tell you, there are people that I've gotten to know. I hear them or I meet them, and I'm like, oh my gosh, how did I not know about you a long time ago? And Carrie Garcia is one of those people, and you were the one who introduced her to me.

Todd Fields: 2:08

Yeah. I didn't know Carrie until 2023. I was at a thing in Atlanta with Dan Allender, Kathy Lorzell, and Adam Young. And Carrie was there in the green room. And we just had kind of a there was a supernatural connection there from for me with Adam that day. And I ended up meeting everybody else in the green room. And Carrie, I didn't know that well. But when it came time, as I continued to want to do what we call story work, my friend Jason Faulkner at Trinity Anglican said, You need to do Freedom Academy. And I'm like, What's Freedom? He's like, Carrie's got this whole like biblically based trauma informs training she does with people in church leadership. And man, I just on Jason's recommendation went to Nashville in 2024 in the spring. And it was probably one of the coolest times I've had just for myself with God. And I just immediately I was like, we've got to bring this world into the worship circle stream. And so Carrie, in a space where there's just a lot of information with trauma and healing and story work, Carrie and her testimony just go hand in hand with God's call in her life to really, I think, give the church some biblical handles for what this healing work would look like. She's the real deal.

Greg: 3:23

It's funny because the way you talk about her, I would have guessed you've known her a lot longer than you have.

Todd Fields: 3:28

Yeah, I think when you're when you meet somebody who God has ordained for a specific season of your life to basically let you know that he loves you, Carrie's one of those people for me. Man, because I was ripe for my need to know that I'm loved and not alone, that God is going to redeem my own story. And it it intersected with meeting her. It's just been, she's just one of those people that I want to say we we both get it. We both experience the grief, and at the same time, we both know that Jesus is a healer, and we want to help more people in the church discover how to be more present to God themselves and others. God is orchestrating our stories, and we keep our hands open and surrendered. But I mean, I met you, and these relationships are just such a healing presence of God to my life. You and Andy Gullah and this whole community would awaken. It's like, you know, we're all traveling in the same direction. We're all just grateful to have friends and that God introduces the new brothers and sisters that have a common shared vision and purpose and heart. The enemy can't stand this. Right. He's trying to take all our families down, our souls down, and we get we get to kind of band together and remind ourselves of who we are, whose we are, and that we all have been harmed in this life, but it can be redeemed.

Greg: 4:46

And while we're in the process of experiencing some of that redemption now, we have these connections that we get to make with people who remind us of the truth. And God uses them to keep us from getting discouraged and losing hope. Man, you just can't listen to Carrie for very long without feeling more hopeful than before she started talking.

Todd Fields: 5:04

Man, I love her passion just for the Lord and her passion for people. It's contagious. I can't wait to hear what she has to say for you guys.

Greg: 5:11

Well, the wait is over because here it comes. This is episode 54. It's called Freedom is the presence of God in your pain. Our guest is Carrie Garcia, and the conversation starts right now. Carrie Garcia, thanks for joining us on What We Really Want.

Karrie Garcia: 5:28

Yeah, I'm glad to be here. And I love how festive it is in the background. Christmas is here. It's before Thanksgiving. I don't know when this thing's gonna air, but right now, there's Christmas in the background.

Greg: 5:40

We're recording before Thanksgiving, but we are sitting right now in our daughter's apartment in Nashville and she's put her Christmas decorations out.

Karrie Garcia: 5:47

I love it. I love it. And that way when you're listening to this, you're gonna be like, oh, I can hold on to some holiday feelings.

Greg: 5:53

That's right. That's it.

Stacey: 5:54

Because I go into depression in January. Putting it all away is sad. That's right.

Greg: 5:59

We laugh, but you actually do.

Karrie Garcia: 6:01

I actually do. No, for real. Their seasonal depression is a real thing.

Greg: 6:05

Well, Carrie, I'm really excited. People that we love have spoken so well of you. And then we were at the rest retreat in Atlanta last month and got to hear you speak. And so we've just been really, really excited. We've got a lot to talk about, but before we get going, I'd love to just know from you what do you really want out of our conversation?

Karrie Garcia: 6:24

Well, I've thought about this. And really, I I really just want you have a sect of listeners that I don't know and I don't have. So my hope is that they would get some answers to things that maybe they've been curious about and that they would, they would hear, gosh, there's hope and permission and goodness and healing for me, even if I've kind of checked all the good boxes and I desire more. So I would hope that this would be informative and also given permission to say, like, there are places you can heal. And hopefully that will be that will be the experience here. That's amazing.

Greg: 7:01

Yeah. In order to move towards those places, uh, we also kind of have to know what exists in our lives that we need to heal from. Personally, in my own life and met so many other Christians who don't even see their wounds as wounds, you know, just because of how normal they were. And I know that that's something you feel pretty strongly about, helping people understand their stories better. So excited to jump into that. But I mentioned that we we met you at the rest retreat what when you were there as the speaker in the first two sessions. There was so much resonance and so much alignment in what you were talking about with kind of what we do all the time in our recovery community, but we don't really know you. And so before we jump into too many things that are specific, as we start, could you just tell us and our listeners a little bit about you and your story and kind of how you came to be where you are today?

Karrie Garcia: 7:48

This is always such a loaded question when you're 51. But um, I will give you the very, very top highlight version of been in church ministry, I feel like since I was born. I'm a third generation pastor. Dad ran a church, mom was on the worship team, that whole spiel, but lots of brokenness. And this was in the 80s and 90s when you just didn't talk about what was going on. You just showed up to church and looked good.

Stacey: 8:11

Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 8:12

Didn't talk about my mom's eating disorder, her really severe mental illness, suicidal ideation, and ultimately her suicide. Didn't talk about what I was doing with all those things and so all those emotions. And so I stepped into addiction for about 10 years of my life, drug addiction, and got off drugs, went into ministry, and ministry just became my drug. To be honest with you, I didn't really heal with why I did drugs in the first place. So I just kind of traded one bad addiction for one addiction that was socially acceptable. And that was get on a stage, perform. I mean, that's what I knew. That's what I knew growing up. But at some point, when my mom committed suicide and I had been off drugs for a while at that point, there was a lot of stuff that kind of came in that was like, what's something is wrong here? There's a disconnect between who God is, who he says he is, what the church is providing, and then the fact that my mom can have this many notes in her Bible and still commit suicide. And that felt like an integrity gap for me. And then began a journey of my own healing. I, you know, it's too long to get into, but a lot of brokenness, as you can imagine, coming from a home that was that disconnected and honestly that dissociative. And so I really began a journey about, gosh, 20 years ago of really starting to go, what is this life? What is God in this? What is He looking for? How do we actually heal patterns that keep repeating even though we love God? And then that moved me into lots of therapy and then ultimately into neuroscience and figuring out how to heal that part of my heart and my mind through understanding how the brain, the body, and the Bible work together. And so now I run an organization called Freedom Movement and we train people to become trauma-informed coaches, like biblically trauma-informed. We also help people become certified in becoming trauma-responsive story practitioners. So lots of training that I do. I teach a lot of training about how to be trauma-informed in the church.

Greg: 10:14

So from the time that you first realized there were a lot of things in your life that had affected you in this way, that you had undergone a lot of trauma yourself to the time that you started doing your own work around that, to the time that you began to channel that into what you now do professionally. Kind of what was that time frame? How how old were you when you started to realize the work that was there for you to do and start doing that work?

Karrie Garcia: 10:40

I tried to commit suicide when I was 27. And so at 27 was when I, I mean, literally turned the car around and called to get help. And it was, so I say the beginning of that journey was at 27, but I didn't really, I did a lot of really good foundational work around behaviors. But I wouldn't say that there was transformational work until 2018 when I started really diving into story work and understanding the neuroscience behind how this is not a spiritual issue. This is actually a trauma issue. And how the church begins to do. So I would say that was almost 10 years ago that I started really diving into that. But it's been a journey. I'm 51 now, so however many years that is, from 27 to about 51, I've I've been training and teaching all of those years because the church will, if you're good at speaking, they'll put you up on a stage even if you're not healthy. And you are very good.

Stacey: 11:41

You are very gifted and you are funny.

Greg: 11:44

But that's true, but that's true. Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 11:47

So, but the real healing part was I would say the blast 10 years have really been very specified. But I don't discount those years. I'm a therapy and the work that I did and the therapeutic in that modality was foundational to being able to do the work that I do now.

Greg: 12:04

Well, something that you said a minute ago, it's it's it's not a spiritual issue, it's trauma. I think it's important to pause on that for a second because I think so many people who have grown up conditioned to filter their lives through a certain lens where anything that's wrong is because of a spiritual defect. You know, kind of the analysis of Job's friends, you know, this must be happening because you did something wrong. And sometimes that was conditioned in our lives intentionally, sometimes unintentionally, but either way, most of us had some measure of that. But I I feel like it's so common to see it as a spiritual problem because when we are affected by our trauma, it affects how we look and show up for everything, including our spiritual lives. So it isn't that it's that our spiritual life is not affected by it, but what you're what I think I hear you saying is some spiritual defect is not the source of it.

Karrie Garcia: 13:01

Right. And you can't solve a trauma issue with just a spiritual band-aid.

Greg: 13:07

Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 13:07

Like there's not, that's just not, that's bad science. And I am, I am and that theology, right? Yeah, really, honestly. And so I I mean, I don't get me wrong, like the B I B L E, it's the book for me. I love the Bible. I everything that I do goes through the grid of biblical truth. However, when we're talking to somebody who is an addict and we're wanting them to pray away their addiction, it doesn't, I mean, God can do anything, obviously, he can heal anything, but God stays within the confines of how he created. And that's what he's always done. He is a God of order, he's not a god of chaos. Miracles are amazing, and sometimes those break through in the miracle of the healing the body. But more often than not, it he he works within the confines of how he made a brain and a body. And so, within his system, yeah. That's right. And so, I mean, we see this time and time again in in the stories and scripture. It's not just like, boom, you're healed. Often it's relational connection to the places of the wounding, the woman at the well, Peter, you know, after he's denied Jesus, these are all God's Jesus' way of healing the trauma that had happened, the dysregulation or whatever, with presence and curiosity and a revisiting of the old memory so that they can what's called memory reconsolidate, reconsolidate the memory in a new way so it can have a new experience. And that's what heals the brain. Your addict, your addiction to drugs is not your problem. That's a behavior and coping mechanism for you not to not have to deal with the root of the problem. And so if we if we stay with behavior modification, we never we don't actually get to heart transformation or or brain neuroplasticity.

Greg: 14:47

And so if what so many people with long-term struggles and deep struggles pray for, which is God take this away, if he were to do that and step outside of his system and do it instantaneously, miraculously, then what I think I hear you saying is that would actually keep us from some of the deeper, more healing, transformational things that take time.

Karrie Garcia: 15:10

Well, just wouldn't be very kind of God to heal something that is actually the top of the weeds and not the root. Now, I detoxed off of meth that I had been addicted to for 10 years in my house. And I didn't, I mean, I did relapse, you know, again at 27, but like I'm glad I got off drugs. I'm glad that felt very miraculous to me. I prayed and it was like for being on drugs that long, it was pretty miraculous that I was able to walk away after two days and you know, all of that. But Jesus had a deeper, like he took the fog of that away. But God, Jesus was like, we have a lot of work to do in the depths of your heart and in the depths of your brain so that we can actually create new neuron pathways so that you can see me through the grid of who I actually am, not the grid of your pain or your story. And that was much more than like a snap of the fingers. And that was intimate and kind. And that was what he wants. He wants closeness with me. And he, if he just were to heal me like a genie, then we move away from actually how we were wired in that relational connection, intimate connection. And God wants to where the family of origin or the families of like the stories of our life have shaped us, God wants to come in and where the family of God and his presence heal us. And that doesn't happen with a snap of the fingers. Then he's just he's you know matter if he did a miracle or not, even the miracles that we saw in scripture, they're still needing the presence of God. They're still needing to be able to walk out what it means to sanctify and heal in their brains, their bodies.

Greg: 16:45

So, in that context, the miracle of when you got off meth or when something else dramatic happens, that's not the end of the story. Oftentimes, that's the beginning of a deeper, bigger, more fully transformational story.

Karrie Garcia: 16:58

Yes. How depressing if my story was that I got off drugs. That's not, that's not actually a good story. Right. That's a, I mean, great, I'm glad, but to live a free and fully alive life is what we all desire. And getting off drugs is so, I mean, it's great. I'm glad I got off drugs, but oh my gosh, that does not give me the fully alive life that I'm wanting. I want integration. I want shalom in my body, in my mind, and my spirit. I want that to happen. Getting off drugs didn't do that for me. It cleared the pathway so I could think clearly, more clearly, and understand why I was doing it. But it's not what's wrong with me, it's what happened to me. And when I go back and I'd be able to engage that, gosh, the life that God has for me is not I'm a recoverer from addiction. Like that's not my story. My story is.

Greg: 17:48

Certainly not your identity.

Karrie Garcia: 17:50

No, like that's not. I mean, I'm not a drug addict. I'm a child of God that struggled with addiction and still does. I've been sober 23 years, but I am still have addictive tendencies. And some of those addictions are good.

Greg: 18:03

You know, I think what you're pointing out now is is really helpful and important for people who are in recovery fellowships to be reminded of because, you know, there are individuals, there are there are some, you know, unique fellowships here and there that really do place what I would say is too high of a prioritized message on just getting sober. And if we can see sobriety not as the end, but as a means to an end, which is living that John 10, 10 life that Jesus said he came to bring us, you know, not only eternal life, not only we're gonna go to heaven when we die, but between now and then that it would be full and it would be abundant and it would be everything that he intended it to be.

Karrie Garcia: 18:41

Yes.

Greg: 18:42

So sobriety can take its proper place in a bigger story.

Karrie Garcia: 18:45

Absolutely. But if you just get off drugs and you don't understand why you were on them in the first place, you will find another addiction to ease and soothe. That's how the brain, the body was how God made us.

Greg: 18:59

We'll be a dry drunk, we'll find a different strategy, we'll just hop from one branch to another. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing that that we're doing something that is so much more socially acceptable. Like you said, you can have a very unhealthy person who's put up on a stage to talk to thousands of people, and we are no closer to our authentic self than we were when we were taking drugs.

Karrie Garcia: 19:20

Or that stage is more is better for me than meth. I got a greater arousal on the stage and the applause than I did from meth. So, you know, you have to understand like the body is it's is drawn to arousal, it's drawn to feeling good. That's that's how God made us. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm just cloaking it in a way that looks like good ministry, but really it's the devil's all over that. Like, there's I'm tied to the stage for my identity, I'm working for my worth, I'm performing for God's and performing for favor and not really getting love. Love is not favor. And so, you know, it's we don't like to talk. About that in the church. But the reality is, is if you're not doing rooted work and really integrating the wholeness of your story and what shaped you, you will just naturally go from one addiction to another, whether it's the phone or it's ministry or it's meth or it's porn or it's people pleasing. They're all going to be addictive behaviors to try to cope with the pain in your story that you have not looked at. And when you get to look at it, it's painful. It's why you've been avoiding it. But that grief is going to move you towards shalom restored in your life because you're actually getting to rooted issues that are no longer dictating your behavior.

Stacey: 20:36

I was just thinking, you said it first, people pleasing, because I like, I didn't have an addiction like drug addict addiction or anything, but the people pleasing. And okay, so if I'm not doing that anymore, so what if I'm not doing my work? And I feel like that has been the last almost 17 years of us being in recovery and doing that work of, and I still have to like be careful because I want to do what we do now really well. And I want people to think I know my stuff and whatever. But I'm honestly feeling more alive and integrated and connected to people than ever before. And not a lot if you looked at my life or even people who knew me before who haven't stayed in touch. I don't know that they would say I'm that different from what they remembered, but I'm so different, you know, if they were in and in day in and day out. If you don't get to those roots of even the people pleasing, you just Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 21:33

And instead of condemnation, Stacy, there's a beautifulness in saying, how can we approach with kindness? Your people pleasing saved you. It kept you surviving, it kept you in places of belonging, especially when you were younger. You know, you know, you couldn't just leave your house. You didn't have a 401k, you couldn't make seven, right?

Stacey: 21:53

You know, and I lived in Africa. My I'm a missionary kid.

Karrie Garcia: 21:56

There you go. So there's the layers of that, right? There's beauty in that, and there's also a heartache in that of what does it mean to be othered? And what is it, you know, like there's a mom's busy doing so there, there's a lot of like cultural dynamics with that of going, what does it mean to be a missionary? Like natural people pleasing is gonna come out of that. So it's not something that we want to look and go, oh my gosh, I'm so terrible that I'm a people pleaser. Right. Well, actually, there's beauty in the fact that you want to be generous and that you want to give and you want to honor. But when you're doing it in a place that where you forsake yourself or you forsake God, and that becomes your idolatry, then you get to go with kindness, you get to go, oh, okay. Hey, we're doing something because we feel off. We are we're trying to soothe, we're trying to feel worth, and we actually get to offer kindness. Oh, that's the seven-year-old and me, that's the little parts of me. And in that, we don't have to beat ourselves up with shame and condemnation, but we get to step into invitation. What might I need? I might be needing something right now. And I'm opting for a coping mechanism to actually soothe that, where I can now look at Greg and say, Oh, I actually am just feeling really lonely. And so I'm going around doing all these things, but could you just be with me for a moment? I think that's what I'm needing right now instead of going to these other things. So it's that's the work. It's not beating yourself up or I'm terrible or I gotta be so different. You know, it's like we just we're just kind day by day.

Greg: 23:20

And yeah, and that's what makes some of this work so hard, is because if you just give somebody a checklist of different things to do, like this column is things to stop doing, and this column is things to start doing, man, let's do, let's go, you know. That's right. But what you're describing is stop doing and start being. And people are like, what are you talking about? I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to do that. It's it's like it's not relearning something, it's learning something totally new. Because underneath every maladaptive behavior is a good desire that has been distorted. You know, and as Christians, we believe that that distortion comes as a result of deception. We've got an enemy who hates us and wants to tell us that the way to get this good desire met is in a sinful way, an idolatrous way. And of course we fall for it because we're we don't have the resilience or the capacity, you know, at these points where we're so vulnerable to see the deception for what it is.

Karrie Garcia: 24:16

Well, and it works for the moment. So I mean, drugs worked.

Greg: 24:22

That's right until they're 10 years of my life.

Karrie Garcia: 24:24

They worked. They numbed the things I didn't want to see. And I think the thing is about being is so, well, what does that mean? I mean, being is in essence sitting in honesty and reality. Sin is our escape from what is really happening. And so, like, we go, oh, like I don't want to feel that, or I want to do like the sin is I'm gonna cheat on my husband, but the reality is I'm like disconnected in my marriage. And so I but I I don't want to look at that. I don't so when I say, when you say be, people, yes, they get so frustrated. Look, here's the answer to being. Being is being in reality and being honest. So if I'm saying stop doing, your doing is your escape from the reality that you're in sometimes, you know, and and the invitation is to be is to be honest in the reality that you're in. We can't do any every you can't do anything without reality. So you are subject to sin when you don't want to look at reality. You are subject to, you know, doing and addictions when reality is too painful.

Greg: 25:25

So And once again, even the healthy stop doing is not for its own sake and isn't the end. It is to create space so that in the absence of this chaos, I can learn how to see reality, recognize it as reality, live in reality.

Karrie Garcia: 25:42

And operate. Yes.

Greg: 25:43

Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 25:43

Yes.

Greg: 25:44

Well, so this is this might be a really good time to transition into something that I told you ahead of time, I really hoped that we would discuss because I think it could help all of us get what we want, which is people to grab onto something that's going to be really life-giving for them. You work a lot with ministry leaders because you grew up in a pastoral and a church saturated environment, as did both of us, and you know, like we do, how wonderful it can be and how traumatic it can be. And I think you also know how often good-hearted, well-intentioned leaders can unintentionally do harm. When when you were speaking at the rest retreat, one of the things that you shared, and I know that this is kind of a core of freedom movement, is that you talked about how ministry leaders to really make a difference in the lives of hurting people, they need three things. They need to be biblically sound, they need to be spirit-filled, and they need to be trauma-informed.

Karrie Garcia: 26:41

Yes.

Greg: 26:42

And my experience, I'd love to hear you talk about it. I've known plenty of leaders who are really strong in A and B. They're biblically sound and they're they're seeking to be spirit-filled in their lives, but they don't have any trauma-informed experience, or people who are trauma-informed, but they've kind of given God the old he-ho and and they've kind of rejected traditional spirituality and Christianity. And so when this is the case, what does that create? What does the lack of all three create for the people that leaders are trying to shepherd?

Karrie Garcia: 27:14

Well, it creates a couple of things. It creates idolatry because people want you to fix their problems, and so they elevate you and expect something from you. And it's a quite the setup. So eventually you'll fail and fall. So that's what it does for the people. But there's a setup in someone's heart when they come to church. And, you know, I would say 50 years ago, trauma informed did not need to be a thing. And here's why: because we had community.

Greg: 27:46

Wow.

Karrie Garcia: 27:46

There was families, there was potlucks, there was, you know, fellow Chapel, there was AWANA, there was Wednesday night, there was, there was and there was more. Yeah.

Greg: 27:56

I went all the way through AWANA.

Karrie Garcia: 27:57

Yeah. I mean, there was there was fellowship, even if it was dysfunctional, you know, if you are 50% attentive to your children, you creating secure attached children. Right. We had at least 50% of that.

Greg: 28:11

Yeah, there was that good enough, right?

Karrie Garcia: 28:13

Yeah. I mean, my parents were definitely not 50% uh, you know, in attunement, but we had community. Now, I'm talking 50 years ago. You know, we're talking like the 70s, 60s and 70s, there was a much more of a family unit. But we have now progressively uh isolated and moved into places, especially, you know, in the last 20 years, where brains are not actually developing the way that they used to develop. So they're stunting in the brain. There's not the connection in the brain. And so it's it's not that you're doing it wrong. It's that the that we've changed. And the message of God doesn't change. Jesus was, I just did a reel about this. Jesus was highly trauma-informed. I mean, he's the greatest neuroscientist that ever lived. He knew how to reach someone's heart through connection, but really it's through a neuroscience lens. If you many scriptures are show us this. So when I say you need to be trauma informed in today's day and age, it's it's not that that always had to be that way. It has to be that way now because we don't, we don't have, we're not going home to people or going home to screens.

Greg: 29:24

Didn't always have to be that way, or we didn't have to import it because some of it was naturally happening through the way things were.

Karrie Garcia: 29:32

I mean, you look at the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War had massive amounts of people doing heroin. Right. They came back, everyone's freaked out that everyone's gonna be junkies all over the place. And really, it was like 90% of people that were on heroin didn't become junkies.

Greg: 29:47

Yeah, that's Johan Hari stuff.

Karrie Garcia: 29:49

Yeah, that's right, exactly. And so that is the essence of how God created us. We heal in community. The problem is, is we don't have village anymore. We have global trauma. Churches are dealing with people who are handling global trauma on like a swipe of their phone every day. You shouldn't be knowing what's happening in Israel. It's sad. You shouldn't be knowing what's happening to a bunch of kids in Texas. It's sad. But when you take in all of that, you don't have space to handle the trauma that's even just happening within your own village. Now you're carrying global trauma. And when there's global trauma, it shuts down parts of the brain that actually can think in regulatory ways. We're in hypervigilance, amygdala, fight, fight, or freeze at all times. And pastors are dealing with people who are coming into their congregation so dysregulated, and they think it's a spiritual, like they just need to pray more when in reality it's a trauma issue. And the way you deal with trauma is very specified. And so you don't need to know a ton, but you need to know enough. You don't need to be trauma responsive. I mean, I can help train you in that, but you do need to be trauma-sensitive and trauma-informed so that you can understand how to reach your congregation and really, in my opinion, start changing the way that we do church.

Greg: 31:07

You said something that I think is really important and it's a perspective I haven't thought about. We don't need to know everything that's going on everywhere in the world. And I think when some people first hear that, they might be tempted to think that that sounds uncaring, but that's more coming back to reality, right? Living in the reality that you've been talking about for a while now. Because 40 years ago, before 24-hour cable news and now internet news, there was not a lot less of this stuff going on. There was just a lot less of everybody knowing all of it. And so now you've got people who are filling our churches who are anxious about a thousand things about which they can do nothing practically.

Karrie Garcia: 31:50

Right. Well, let's let's look at the data. Have we become more kind? Have we become more generous? Have we become more connected? Absolutely not. The data tells us that we've actually become more fearful, we've become more hateful, we've become more segregated, we have become less generous. We are like, I gotta hold on to my stuff because when's it gonna be taken? So the truth is, we could think that caring about the whole world is gonna make us kinder. It doesn't. It's actually doubling down on how terrified we are. The only person on the planet that can handle what is happening on a global level is Jesus Himself. We were not intended for that. Our brains were not intended. So we are hyper vigilant everywhere we go. That is not creating more regulated people. What are the stats? Anxiety's up, depression's up, suicidal ideation is not only up, but suicide is up. So our world is getting worse as we know more, and that is not producing generosity and kindness. But then the question is, well, Karrie, that's the world we live in. So what do we do? You know, like how do I avoid what's happening?

Greg: 33:01

Yeah, which is a great question. I mean, because that hypervigilance comes in really handy if you're trying to escape getting mauled by a bear in the woods for a short period of time because it's your body saying, You're about to die, get the heck out of there. But it's not a constant state. It's not something that's got this continuous, unexpiring shelf life, but so many people are just perpetually living in that. Um it's exhausting. And so that's right. I mean, I'm I'm just imagining for people who are coming to church emotionally, spiritually, mentally, physically exhausted. And then we've got these pastors and leaders who are going, what is going on? Like, and why are especially people who have been in it for a couple of decades? Like, why it seems like when I used to preach this inspiring message, it seemed to make a much bigger difference than it's making now. And so for those leaders who are noticing that something is off, how are you guys helping them to make adjustments to the way that they shepherd people?

Karrie Garcia: 34:05

Well, a couple of things. One, understand that very little of what you preach on a Sunday morning is actually resonating because information doesn't heal us, unfortunately. Used information used to be wonderful because we were only getting it once in a while, but now we're getting information on the truckloads. And information doesn't bring transformation. It just that's bad science. And so, you know, what brings transformation is connection. And so what we're doing is really helping train leaders and lay leaders. How do I sit and have transformative conversations? When someone brings something hard to me, what do I do with that? Because right now we try to fix people, which is actually doubling down on trauma. We try to pad prayer or a scripture and we just kind of throw it their way. And I'm not saying those things aren't beautiful, but ill-timed and ill-used becomes a weapon rather than a salve, which it was meant to be. And how can we ask better questions? How do we stay regulated? And that's the bigger thing is we can't take people farther than you're willing to go yourself. So if you want to help all these people, but you're not willing to look at your own life, then you're you're not gonna realize it, but you're actually helping from a very dysregulated, disproportionate place. And so you're preaching from a stage, but you're not tuned in to what's actually happening in the room. And you're in your own kind of world. And so that's what we help pastors, leaders begin to go, okay, how what's going on? What's the story? How do we change? What's the coping mechanisms? What's the bridge of grief? What does grief look like? We kind of train them in this, and then we train them. How do I begin to have better conversations? How do I ask open-ended questions? How do I sit with someone and not have them go off the rails for two hours and me feel exhausted? That's actually not kind. So, how do we create containment? How do we create attunement? How do we create repair? Those are the things that we teach you, and that helps you become trauma-informed. Trauma informed is understanding what's going on in your body and your brain and what's going on in their body and their brain as much as you can through questions. And so that's what we're teaching you. We don't need you to be a therapist. I don't, I don't need you if we all healed through therapists, then God would be cruel because 90% of the world can't afford therapy.

Greg: 36:18

But we do need for them when they are meeting with an activated church member who's coming in rageful to be able to say, that seems disproportionate to what we're talking about. So maybe there's something else going on. Right. And rather than being reactive to just what's going on on the surface, we have as leaders the resilience to say, hey, hmm, you're talking as if this is about me, but I I can know like this can't possibly be about just me. Like this has got to be about something bigger than that. So rather than get in the weeds, I'm gonna get curious and I'm gonna stay regulated. I'm not gonna jump into the dysregulation with you. And then it's we're gonna figure this out, but probably not in this one meeting.

Karrie Garcia: 37:06

Yeah, maybe not, and maybe so. It depends on where they are. But think about what you just said. The person that is hearing this has to be regulated enough to be able to go, okay, you're really upset. I have this happen all the time, you know. Like people are upset with me. I say stuff that pushes people's buttons, and why are you saying? And I'm like, well, tell me more about what's coming up inside you. But I have to have done my own work to be able to stay regulated like that. A regulated body regulates a body, a dysregulated body will dysregulate. So if I'm matching their, it happens with my kids all the time. There's no one that can dysregulate me more than my children. And I'm like, you know, but it never makes it better when I'm dysregulated. Never. We never get anywhere.

Stacey: 37:50

I don't know what you're talking about.

Greg: 37:51

What are you laughing at?

Karrie Garcia: 37:53

Right, right. And so, like I have to be able to know myself well enough to know, okay, take a breath. Just like what you said, Greg. Even if this is about me, I can receive that and repair if I need to. But can I get curious and bring them into a place that says, hey, I am so glad you came in here. This must mean a lot to you. Because I can tell it means a lot to you. And if it means a lot to you, then I want it to mean a lot to me. So let's I would love if we could just like take a breath for a second, because I really want to be able to hear you because I can tell that you're really upset. But I can't do that if I'm automatically dysregulated and defensive. And it takes a lot of maturity to get to that place to be able to do that and you know, some work to be able to do that. But once you do, man, the healing that can come. Because it's if someone is that activated, it's always about something else. This is why it's so hard for pastors to do this because pastorship is the only job that if you are messed up, you lose your job.

Stacey: 38:54

Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 38:54

I mean, you can be a president and be do some crazy stuff and not lose your job. Really?

Greg: 39:01

Does that kind of stuff happen?

Stacey: 39:03

We might know some things.

Greg: 39:06

Or get your job back.

Karrie Garcia: 39:08

I mean, it's like it's crazy. Like, and that's because there is something about this pastorship that we have elevated them to say, you are you are above human, and therefore you need to be good because I'm so messed up. But when you start creating a culture that says, we are all really broken here, and you're gonna speak. My pastor, who's done a ton of work with me, will get up and go, Hey, I just need you guys to know, like, I'm walking, I'm like this week, I've been very anxious, really struggling with my anxiety. And I don't need you to email me. I don't need you to tell me what I need to do. I'm telling you because I wanna let you know that anxiety is not a faith issue. Thank you. Anxiety is a nervous system issue. And I'm having a nervous system issue this week because I got four teenage kids. I've got a mortgage, I've got the And so anxiety was running high. So as I'm coming and preparing this message for you, some of it is through the grid of my anxiety, and some of it is through the grid of God's word. And there's going to be a mix in that today. And so I want you to hear God's word and also know my humanity will be mixed in.

Greg: 40:16

And he refused to allow himself to be pedestalized because when we pedestalize our leaders, it's not good for the people who are putting them on pedestals because it takes their eyes off of Jesus. It's not good for the people on the pedestal because it takes their eyes off of Jesus. And like you said, the only one who really has the power to do the thing that we somehow on some level know needs to be done is left out of the process. Because we're looking at a person to do something that only God can do. Now, yes, he uses people as part of exercising his power, but as conduits, as servants, you know, it's not all on us. And so to have a leader who is saying, I have, you know, I am a jar of clay just like you're a jar of clay.

Karrie Garcia: 41:02

Yes.

Greg: 41:03

I've got this surpassing power, you know, in me. I've got this treasure in me, but it isn't me. It's been put into me by the one that I'm trying to point you guys to.

Karrie Garcia: 41:13

Yeah. And my jar's pretty cracked today. Like my jar's pretty, my jar's chipping, you know.

Greg: 41:18

But if it's chipping, then get what then what gets to ooze out if we do it right is the treasure.

Karrie Garcia: 41:23

That's right. That's right. And what does it do to a pastor in any kind of form when we don't allow that? We move them into greater isolation and greater elevation into an ivory tower where no one is there to say a thing, and this is when the enemy comes down. So we're so mad at pastors, and I'm saying that there's accountability, yes. We're so mad at pastors when they fail, when they fall in their marriage, they do horrific things. And we go, was it always like this? Or has there been such isolation and elevation that there's actually nowhere they can actually say, I am really struggling. I am really hurting. I'm having really tough thoughts. I'm looking at pornography, I am struggling with thoughts about this woman. I like there's no place to be brutally honest because he's gonna lose his job.

Greg: 42:12

Yeah.

Karrie Garcia: 42:12

And that's nuts.

Stacey: 42:14

Our story.

Greg: 42:15

Yeah, I mean, that happened to me. And by the time it blew up, there was no other consequential option. I mean, yeah, right. I I couldn't keep my job at that point. But had there been the ability to check those things in before it got to that nuclear point, right? A, it wouldn't have had to have gone where it did. But B, just to be honest, I'm still not sure I would have been honest. You know, I but at least the table would have been set and the culture would have been invited. And I think that there's a lot of healing that comes when we show what that looks like and when we continually tell our people, I know it might be hard for you to believe, but you really can be honest about your struggles and your sin and not have everybody run away.

Karrie Garcia: 43:00

Right. And I don't know if you would have been honest either, because I'm not in your shoes. But here's what I do know if we start creating a culture of that and it's built over time, even if you can't be honest in that moment, eventually there's enough relational equity and radical candor that allows that person to finally go, I need to get some help.

Stacey: 43:21

Right.

Karrie Garcia: 43:21

It moves beyond, like, I need to confess my sin. And it moves beyond, I really need help. And that, those are really different sentences.

Greg: 43:30

And you know where else it could have gone is it could have gone with me saying, I need to get some help, I need to get healthy, and I'm not sure I can do that in this job. And so I'm going to step away for the good of myself and my family and this church. You know, it's like keeping the job is not, it doesn't need to be an idol either. You know, I don't think there needs to be automatic firing, and I don't think there needs to be an automatic conclusion that a good ending means you keep your job because that's not always what's best for anybody and everybody. But to have some agency over my steps forward is just something that is often so vacant from the world.

Karrie Garcia: 44:08

Yeah, well, the church does not know repair. They do not know what to do with repair, they don't know what to do with messy, and it's really sad. It's really sad because that is, I mean, look at Jesus with Peter. I mean, denied Jesus, right? And yet repair looked like, do you love me? You know, repair looked like a memory reconsolidation of the exact moment, the exact fire, coal, charcoal, fire. I mean, everything was the same because Jesus wanted him to know that I'm gonna take a memory that really will haunt you for the rest of your life and I'm gonna recreate it and redeem it. And redeem it. And that is what we get to do. And I luckily I've gotten to work with enough pastors in enough places where when things have gone down, like the pastor's wife is an alcoholic and she she travels all over and does a bunch of stuff about this now, but they didn't kick them out. They what happened was they sent them to recovery and the church prayed for them and they were trauma-informed and understanding this is way rooted, and they've been reestablished, and now they're doing a marriage, you know, stuff, but they went through hell. But the church was there going, look, you're human. Now you need a minute, you need to take a bath just your own sanity, but we don't want you to leave.

Stacey: 45:24

Right.

Karrie Garcia: 45:24

We we want to love you and we want to pay for this, and we want to support this. Well, you have poured into us, may we pour into you. Now that's an anomaly, I get it, but it could be this way.

Stacey: 45:35

That's beautiful.

Greg: 45:36

Because you are not a commodity, you know, you are you are an image bearer. Well, and and you said with one of the things that's come with the the deluge of information that we all live in now is it has not increased our joy, it has not increased our kindness, it has not increased our generosity. But there are people like you and hopefully like us and others who are paying attention to that. And and I'm just gonna draw again attention to our friend Todd Fields, who did something very intentional back in 2014 in starting worship circle, which is recognizing how many people who are serving in pastoral ministry leadership are just doing it from just a bone-dry spiritual place and providing a space for them to know that they're loved and not alone. And you don't know this until I'm about to tell you now, but I got on with Todd in anticipation of our interview with you to get him to just say a little bit about his experience with you. He told us he only met you a couple of years ago. Yeah. But the way that he talks about you, it sounds like you guys are lifelong friends. And he he talked about the story work context in which you guys got to know each other. And I just want you to know one thing that he said about you. He said, Karrie is the real deal. When you meet somebody, God has ordained for a specific season of your life to basically let you know that he loves you. And he said, Karrie is one of those people.

Karrie Garcia: 47:03

Todd is dear. He is just he is just a diamond in the roughs, man. Like he is just, he's a good man.

Greg: 47:10

I just wonder, like, what was it about your early experience with him that made you want to be connected to and a part of what he's doing with worship circle?

Karrie Garcia: 47:18

Honestly, like I I'm really good friends with Adam Young. He's a dear friend of mine, good friends with Cathy Loerzel. Those are Dan Allender, those are like really good friends of mine. And when I saw Todd come into the green room, we didn't know Todd, we didn't know Todd. He just came in there, but Adam had known him. And you know, Adam is very, he's very honest about his own stuff. And Todd came in and played this song for for Adam that got Adam through some really dark days. And as he was playing, I just like the the sorrow of what Todd had tasted was coming out in this song. And Adam's crying, and I'm crying, and Todd's crying. And then when we were done, I just felt like the Holy Spirit was like, reach out to him, tend to him. And I don't really like, like the Lord has to be really clear, like, you know, reach out because I could reach out to everybody, you know. And so kept reaching out to him. And really what drew me to him is Todd's desire to be a gatekeeper. The gatekeeper is like, look, I have avenue to all these people that God has entrusted me with. And they need help, Carrie. And I I want to help them, but I don't, I don't have the skill to help them. I have the skill to gather them. I get them, but I don't have the skill to help them. And so I want to help them.

Greg: 48:36

Which the gathering is a huge skill.

Karrie Garcia: 48:38

Huge. One that I don't do. Like I look for gatekeepers. That's not, I don't, I don't have access like that. Really, it was it was his desire to see them heal heal and also his willingness to really listen. Like, hey, there's a there's a there's an easier pathway for Christians to go down this route. Story work is deep waters. Maybe let's get their toe wet. Can I help you teach how to get their toe wet and do it through a biblical lens, they're gonna need that. And he was just so humble and receptive and so eager to learn. I just love being around anyone who's eager to learn and you know who's like humble. And Todd is Todd has got no pretense. Yeah, he's just like Todd.

Greg: 49:23

And he could, if he were so inclined to show up that way, because he goes back forever and he's connected with everybody that people in, you know, steeped in worship music have heard of and know. And I mean, you the one testimony of that is how many people have said yes to coming alongside him in Worship Circle,

Karrie Garcia: 49:44

Which is a feat.

Greg: 49:45

Oh my gosh.

Karrie Garcia: 49:45

To get worship leaders to gather around. Worship leaders are the artsy prophets of the church. It's you can't even get them to get up early. You know, it's like they're like all over the place, you know.

Greg: 49:55

It's probably almost as hard as what Lionel Ritchie went through to get everybody to record We Are the World.

Karrie Garcia: 50:03

You know you're old when you do a reference to We Are the World. But I'm here for it! (singing) We are the world! Yes, brother. Yeah. So the fact that he can do that and people trust him, and the fact that he's introducing some of this work, and it's like, you know, it's a little out there if you've been in evangelical kind of circles. You're like, well, what is this? Is this like voodoo? What is going on here? What story work? Like, is this like pop therapy or is even this therapy? I don't need therapy, I just need Jesus, you know, and so he's introducing and pilgrimaging a lot of stuff. But again, I say this all the time. Jesus never went through the top rung to make something happen. He went through the back door. And I think that worship leaders are a lot of the back door into churches because they aren't the head pastors, but they have influence and they also are creating culture. And so it's very interesting to me how God is orchestrating this movement of freedom through us and the work that we're doing and then the partnerships that we have. It's very interesting to me that it's actually not through the a lot of the head pastors, some of it, but mostly it's through congregate members, it's through highly influential people in the church and worship leaders. It's like happening.

Greg: 51:17

And lead pastors who allow that to be.

Karrie Garcia: 51:20

Yes. Those are more rare.

Greg: 51:21

Who don't shut it down, you know.

Karrie Garcia: 51:23

Those are more rare, but they do come. And we have a free once a year, we offer a free Freedom Academy training, which is the three-day intensive for pastors and their wives. And we have a church that sponsors any pastor and their spouse or one other person from anywhere in the world for free to come to do this thousand dollar training. They they offer it for free. Just got to get there.

Greg: 51:42

Amazing.

Karrie Garcia: 51:43

It is our hardest academy to fill.

Greg: 51:45

Really? Well, actually, that doesn't surprise me.

Karrie Garcia: 51:48

I was gonna say, great, come on, you know. Yeah, I mean, because it's very risky. So this is just, you know, where I just feel like Todd and our alignment is just really of the Lord because now pastors are asking their worship, like, what's going on with you? You're have you been thinking as therapists or something? And they're like, well, actually, I did this thing called Freedom Academy, you know, and they're like, Oh, well, what is that?

Greg: 52:08

Freedom sounds biblical.

Karrie Garcia: 52:10

Yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right. Is it biblical? Yes.

Greg: 52:13

Well, and I just as we're as we're wrapping up here, Karrie. First off, I'm just so grateful for the conversation. It's just, it's filling and life-giving for us. But I think of the old saying that hurt people, hurt people, but you have one that's the flip side of that coin and you say free people, free people.

Karrie Garcia: 52:30

Yeah, I got it on a sweatshirt.

Greg: 52:32

I'm thinking about what's coming off of the what's coming off of the platform at our churches where we gather week after week, is something that is an energy and a message that is either coming from a place of hurt or coming from a place of freedom. And often it's coming from a mix, right? That's right. That's both. But are we moving as leaders, as shepherds, as caregivers in the direction of becoming more free or or maybe experiencing the freedom that we have already been given, living out of it. Thank you for what you do and thank you for coming on to talk about it. I want to make sure that people have a way of connecting with you more. You're the host of the Honest Podcast, so you can find that anywhere you look for sending that to my women.

Stacey: 53:17

I've listened to several reels, and I'm like, oh, I love this lady. Yeah. Do you eat chips and queso? That is the question. That's it. I do. I would go eat, I'll say that. I would go eat chips and queso with her. You really have listened.

Karrie Garcia: 53:31

That's a deep dive right there. Uh-huh.

Greg: 53:33

Yeah. Yeah. But we want to, we're going to put in the show notes ways that people can get in touch with your teaching, your training, with freedom movement. Uh, anything else you want people to know before we finish up?

Karrie Garcia: 53:44

I mean, if you're really curious about what all this work is, I just wrote a book called Free and Fully Alive, and you can get it on Amazon. It's kind of like the Cliff's Notes version, uh version of Freedom Academy. Um, it's very practical, short chapters, pray at the end, but really like how do I move from this kind of shattered shalom in my life, the shattered places of peace to the restored places of peace and really step by step. So if you're kind of curious about anything I do and you're just like, well, what is it? The book is a really great place to start and kind of get a better idea. And then also just my Instagram, you'll kind of get a feel of what we do and what I do on my Instagram. That's Karrie Scott Garcia, not just Karrie Garcia, but Karrie Scott Garcia.

Greg: 54:26

K-A-R-R-I-E is how you spell Karrie. Yeah, yeah. Because there's like 17 different ways of spelling Karrie.

Karrie Garcia: 54:31

Oh my gosh, so many ways. So that would be a really great way. And I do want to say and just end with this that if we're preaching freedom, freedoms by definition is not the absence of pain. Freedom is the presence of God in your pain. When you can speak from that place, that I have pain, but God is present there. That is actually freedom. There is a freedom that comes. So may we start preaching from places where I can name the hard and the holy, the grief and the gratitude, the fear and the faith, that those can coexist because that's actually freedom. And that's how that's what Jesus did. Jesus was ultimately free and never eradicated parts of the pain to experience the freedom. He married them both. Um, and that that was the exemplified life of freedom. So I just want us to know that that is what freedom is the presence of God in your pain.

Greg: 55:20

I sure do hope people listen all the way to the end because that's one of the most concise and greatest takeaways of this whole conversation. So I definitely hope that people heard that all the way through. Carrie, we can't thank you enough. Thank you so much. It's so good to get to know you better. Yeah, I do too. Can't wait for people to hear this and just God bless you and everything that you're doing.

Karrie Garcia: 55:39

Thank you, friends.