52 | Thaddeus Heffner: Christmas Trees and Therapy

It's December, and just like last year, we're giving you something extra for the holidays. Each week in December we'll release a new episode for you to enjoy! Please remember to follow/subscribe to the show, write a positive review, and share us with others. ALSO, if the show means something to you, please consider a financial gift to help us continue! (Link to give below)

For the first December episode, we caught up with a friend who is both a therapist and a lover of Christmas! Thaddeus Heffner lives in Franklin TN, and has been practicing therapy there since 2009. Many of Thaddeus' clients are people who have also connected with Awaken.

In addition to helping people, Thaddeus loves Christmas and he loves his community. A few years ago he and a friend started a Christmas tradition connected to the lighting of the Franklin Christmas tree. It has grown into something the people of Franklin look forward to each year. Thaddeus has even written a children's book about the tradition.

We talk about Christmas, we talk about therapy, we talk about walking with people as they heal, grow, and begin to take agency and ownership over their own process. It's a rich conversation and we hope you'll be encouraged by it.

Merry Christmas!

#thaddeusheffner #franklinchristmastree #christmastraditions #beersandcheers #therapy #agency #trauma #healing #addiction #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Franklin Christmas Tree Facebook page

The First Franklin Christmas Tree book (Amazon)

Thaddeus Heffner’s therapist website

 Make a donation to Awaken (Thank you!)

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Holiday Schedule, And CTA
• 4:46 Thaddeus: Intro and what he really wants...
• 12:16 The Franklin Magic Pine Cone
• 14:58 Beers & Cheers and community impact
• 19:35 Discovering Agency in therapy work
• 25:21 The struggle to stay present
• 30:58 What do you want out of this work?
• 35:42 Helping clients see their progress
• 41:16 Do the next right thing

Transcript

Thaddeus: 0:01

We never thought about how it might affect people in those ways. So it's wonderful to be part of something bigger than we never meant it to be.

Announcer: 0:11

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg: 0:23

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. Today is episode 52. It's called Christmas Trees and Therapy. And we're going to talk about the episode more in just a minute. But first, I wanted to take a minute and just check in with you on a couple of things. We're approaching the holidays, and just like we did last year, we are going to give you a little gift this year by releasing a new episode every Tuesday in December. Normally we release every other Tuesday, but you can come back each week this month and get a new episode. And so we hope that you really enjoy that and that helps your uh season be a little bit brighter and jollier. We would ask, please subscribe to or follow the podcast. And then go an extra step. We would love for you to write a positive review that really helps the word get out. And then consider sharing about us on social media. When you see us post about episodes when they come out, just go ahead and share those just to help more people find out about the conversations that we're having. One more thing before we get to talking about our episode. Many of you who've been listening for a while know that what we really want is an offering of a nonprofit that Stacy and I started 10 years ago called Awaken. Awaken exists for the purpose of helping people live the lives they were meant to live, free from the destruction of unwanted or addictive sexual behavior and the wounds of sexual betrayal trauma. That's our story, and that's a story that we walk with a lot of people who are going through that in their healing and their recovery. And we're really excited that this show has been a way that a lot of people have found out about us and connected with us in many ways. We realize that at this time of the year, you're probably getting inundated with requests from different charities and nonprofits, just letting you know what the needs are. I'm going to keep this really brief and just let you know that Awaken is a nonprofit. We are supported almost exclusively by the gifts of individuals and organizations. And if Awaken, and specifically if what we really want, has been impactful for you, if it has helped you in any way, we would just ask you to consider sending us a little bit of support before the end of the year. Just go to awakenrecovery.com at the top of the page, click where it says donate, and we would be so grateful for any gift that you would consider giving us before the end of the year. So thanks for hearing that, and thank you for being a faithful listener. Now let's talk about the episode that's coming up right now. This is episode 52. Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner, and it's called Christmas Trees in Therapy. Thaddeus is a therapist in Franklin, Tennessee. I first heard Thaddeus' name from other people that I knew in recovery who lived in the Nashville area who just said he was fantastic, empathetic, just a super person to work with for people who are in recovery from addictive or unwanted sexual behavior. That's not the only type of client that he has, but there are a lot of people who fit that description who have found and worked with Thaddeus. And so we wanted to have a conversation just about his work with clients and what it looks like when someone who comes in stuck gets unstuck and what it was like for him when he went into therapy, finding out sometimes that it seemed like he was working harder than the client and just allowing time for God and the client to work on showing up with what we call agency or taking ownership for your process of healing and recovery. So we talk about that, but before that comes up in the conversation, we have kind of a fun and timely uh topic that we discussed. There's something that Thaddeus has sort of launched as a tradition in Franklin, Tennessee, and that is the annual planting of the Christmas pine cone. And you'll hear us talk about that. He started this with a friend, I think, gosh, I can't remember now how many years ago, six or seven years ago. It has grown into something that people are looking forward to each year. He's even written a children's book about the Franklin Christmas tree. And so that's a lot of fun just hearing him talk about how much he loves the holidays and how it has really allowed him to connect more deeply with his community through this new tradition. So we talk about Christmas trees, we talk about therapy, and it's just a great conversation catching up with an old friend. We really hope that you enjoy it. It's episode 52. It's called Christmas Trees and Therapy. Our guest is Thaddeus Hefner, and the conversation starts right now. Thaddeus Hefner, it's great to see you. It's been a while. Thanks for being on What We Really Want.

Thaddeus: 4:51

Oh, thanks for having me, Greg. It's good to be here with you today.

Greg: 4:54

I'm trying to think back to how long I've known you because I've known of you for probably twelve or more years, but I I think I've probably known you for more like six or seven. And I'm just I've been looking forward to getting to catch up and chat with you today. So this is gonna be fun.

Thaddeus: 5:11

Thank you. Yeah, it has been two years, I think, since we've last seen each other. So this is this is great to be with you.

Greg: 5:17

Well, Thaddeus, as we're getting ready to start, what do you really want out of our conversation today?

Thaddeus: 5:22

What do I want? I think what I want is hopefully whatever is about to unfold, uh, hopefully it'll connect with your audience. And if it can help one person, even just one person, then I'd say it's been a it's been a good meeting. So that's what I would want is just to at least help one person. That's my want for today.

Greg: 5:46

I would love to just take a few minutes here at the start to help our listeners get to know you a little bit, where you came from. Yeah, just help help our listeners get to know Thaddeus a little bit.

Thaddeus: 5:57

Sure. Thanks for asking. I live in Tennessee, have been in the South for about 30 plus years now. I'm originally a Yankee from the Northeast from upstate New York, where I grew up. Come from a really big family. I I'll say raised in the church, but more appropriately, I've in a sense always known Jesus. He's been a part of my life since my earliest memories. Yeah, after school, after college, I made my way to Tennessee. I I did school in Virginia, made my my way here to Tennessee directly after that, and worked in the business side of the music industry for a while. I never heard that. Oh, it's a long time ago in another life. But uh I did that for a little bit and did some other things along the way, and then eventually went back to to graduate school to work on getting my master in marriage to family therapy to work as a therapist. And I've been doing that. So this will be the end of this year, it'll be 17 years that I've been uh working with clients and private practice and really find a lot of joy in doing that.

Greg: 7:03

Well, I'm interested in just if you're if you want to talk about it, what was going on in your previous professional life being in the business into the music industry that made you feel like this was a pivot you wanted to take.

Thaddeus: 7:16

Well, when I left the music industry, I this has happened twice with different companies that I've worked for. I I felt when I I knew I was near the end working for those companies, and I felt a prompting in my spirit from God. And I just knew that it was time to move on. First time was around 99, and the second was 2005. After 2005 is when I went back to grad school for counseling for therapy. But the funny thing is that both times I felt that prompting in my spirit. And I I told a friend one day, I said, I just know I'll God will give me a road sign. He always gives me a road sign. That day I went in and was let go. They were the company was doing a downsize. That actually happened both times in '99. I felt the prompting to leave, and the company did a downsize, and a group of people, including myself and my office, we were let go. And then the second time in 2005, the same thing happened. Both of my bosses, amazing guys, they felt really bad. And for me, I wasn't feeling bad at all because I knew it was time to go and I got a severance on top of it. So that's what prompted me to leave the music industry and head back to school. And what led me more down the road of therapy, I just felt naturally inclined that way and had often thought about, even when I was younger, about uh some some time in life being a pastor, not a preacher, but more pastoral work and and you know, therapy and pastoral work kind of kind of go hand in hand. Sure. Because I'm sh I'm shepherding people.

Greg: 8:54

I got a story in my head about your previous professional life that maybe there were some things relationally where you were already discovering that about yourself. Did you notice in just even your work relationships that you would notice things or had a curiosity about what was going on in other people that kind of made that eventual decision make more sense to you?

Thaddeus: 10:45

Not in the way that it sounds like you're thinking. It was it wasn't more that I saw into the people I worked with, but it was more of what I didn't see and and didn't feel drawn to in the business side, in the business world that I wouldn't say led me to therapy because I was already kind of in that vein of thinking. But it perhaps the better way of saying it is it didn't, I didn't fit in the business world. It's not so much the people around me as much as I just didn't fit because the people around me were were amazing and really great at what what they did.

Greg: 11:20

So you said you're coming up on finishing 17 years practicing as a therapist.

Thaddeus: 11:25

Yes.

Greg: 11:26

Have you been in the middle Tennessee the whole time you've been doing that?

Thaddeus: 11:30

Yeah, the entire time I graduated from Tribeca Nazareth University is where I did my grad work in the end of 2008 and hung a shingle in January of 2009. Started seeing clients within a few months. I didn't have a client ready to go right in January, but by probably March I had my first client and have been here the whole time.

Greg: 11:50

You and I are friends on social media, and some of the things that I see, you've got a a lot of engagement, connection, and endearment in your community that there in Franklin, specifically around the holidays. Right?

Thaddeus: 12:03

You know what I'm talking about? I do. I didn't know you were gonna bring this up. Is that okay? Tell me about you and Franklin around Christmas. Well, since I've been a little kid, I've Christmas has always been my favorite time of the year. And I come from a big family, and so for me, it was always a lot of fun with family and and meals, and uh my parents were wonderful, really tried to make the holidays wonderful for us. And so around 2007, I was introduced to my friend Heath. Heath McLaur, wonderful guy, and he's an Anglican priest. He's he's a lot of things, he wears a lot of different hats, but a wonderful man and good friend. He and his wife were wonderful friends. Well, Heath and I started to get together every Wednesday night at McQuery's pub and talk and get to know each other. And one of those conversations, as the holidays were nearing, we discovered both of us discovered our love of the holidays and Christmas. In in Franklin, in the town square, they'd they put up a tree. And so after we were done at the pub, every Wednesday night during the holidays, we would take a walk down and admire the tree. And then as phones got smarter, I started taking pictures. And then as phones got smarter, we started shooting video, just silly video, right? In front of the tree, you know, 30-second video. And then I think it was around 2017, I had an idea. I wanted to sew a legend into Franklin. Whether it ever takes or catches on, who knows? But it's just been fun to do. So I I got in touch with heath. I said, Hey, I have this idea I want to try. I'm gonna go get a few items, and uh, he was on board with it. So every November 1st, we plant what's called the magic pine cone. We plant the Franklin Christmas tree. It's very family friendly. There's a there's a Facebook page, and uh we video this, and there's candy cane and ultrawell, and there's melted snow water from the North Pole that St. Nicholas sends. And so anyway, it became this thing where we plant it and water it, and then we come back the next week and there's a little sprig of a pine popped up out of the ground, and then we water it with more uh snow water, and then we come back a third week and there's a about a three-foot pine, and then we come back and there's this 40-foot tree in the town square near the end of November, right before Thanksgiving. And then uh on New Year's Eve, we the tree yields back another pine cone for the following year. So we harvest the pine cone and we do other videos throughout the whole season around the tree. Out of that, I decided to write a book about that. So there's now a children's book called The First Franklin Christmas Tree, and the author is Professor Thadamouse, who lives in an old oak tree in the middle of Franklin. So Thadamouse tells the story of the first Franklin Christmas tree, how we we get this magic trine code every year since. Other than that, uh Keith and I also have been friends with the pub for years, the owners of the pub, the like family.

Greg: 14:58

Yeah.

Thaddeus: 14:59

And about this will be our ninth annual what we call Beers and Cheers. So if the pub allows us to come in the Saturday night before Christmas, for two hours, we lead the entire pub in Christmas caroling. And at some point we lower the lights, and Heath reads the the Gospel of Luke story of the first Christmas. So it's a really great time. We have regulars now that come back every year. We're in our ninth year, and uh people really enjoy it. It's a great town. It's a wonderful town just to be a part of the community.

Greg: 15:31

That's really it's fun to hear you describe it because I've never heard it all at all at once. And it's making me think about just about doing something with intentionality because you love it. And you know, you started out saying basically something to the nature of, didn't really know if it was going to catch on or anybody else was gonna care. But it I love Christmas, Heath loved Christmas. We just decided to do this and kind of just see where it goes. It brought to mind another kind of intentional tradition that we've actually talked about on this show when we had Andy Gullahorn and Gabe Scott on talking about their high five that's now been going 11 or 12 years. And I think it's worth pausing for a second and just saying, you know, when we hear people describing these traditions that they started, something that I hear a lot is it's silly or it's a little thing or whatever. And and maybe, maybe there's a little bit of that to it. But Andy even wrote a song of saying small things matter is really no small thing. And there's there's a lot of real pleasure in doing something. And who cares if it gets big or who cares if a lot of people know about it?

Thaddeus: 16:40

Yeah, thanks for saying that. You've reminded me of two other stories tied to what we do at Christmas and the intentionality and what some of the fruit that's come from it. People have asked me when I wrote the book, so what do you hope happens? You want to make a lot of money. And like it's a very specific book for a very specific town. It's you know, it's not gonna make a lot of money. But what I sincerely want is to be invited to light the tree in the town square for one year. That's all I want from it. And and also to sew in a legend, you know, again, hopefully this will catch on over the years. With the Beers and Cheers evening, I think it was two years ago. It might have been even three. We did our Beers and Cheers on Saturday night. And the next day, I was having coffee at a coffee shop in Franklin, about three blocks away from the pub. It was getting close to three o'clock, and someone had emailed me through my business email because they didn't know how else to reach me. They stated in the email, hey, I'm so sorry to reach out through your business email, but we were at Beers and Cheers last night. And long story short, what had happened was there were these two couples that had started to come each year, and they made it their thing. And sadly, earlier that year, one of the couples, the wife, had died unexpectedly. I'm not sure what what that was all about, but it was very sad. And as it got closer to the night of Caroling, they had decided to come anyway to celebrate, but also in honor of her. So I'm sitting in this coffee shop reading this, and and also the night before, Heath, I call myself the side man. Heath is the front man. He just he knows how to talk. He's you know, he's a priest, he talks a lot of the time to people, right? So I do one-on-one. Heath talks in front of people. And and he had just when we do beers and cheers, he will just he'll just deliver a message of truth, and it's really powerful and it hits people different ways. Well, they had in this email, they went on to say what Heath said was exactly what they needed to hear, all three of them. Well, and and it was the truth that they needed and the love that they needed. And so now I'm sitting in this coffee shop reading this email and I'm bawling, and and and it's almost three o'clock, and that's when the pub closes on Sunday. And I knew Heath would be there. So I gotta get over there before they lock the doors. And so I ran down the manager there, Ashley, who's wonderful. She was there too. And so I'm you guys, I can't even read this to you. And I just hand them my phone. I'm like, just read it. And then by the time they were done, the three of us are just sitting around the table crying. We never thought about how it might affect people in in those ways. So it's wonderful to be part of something bigger that we never meant to be bigger.

Greg: 19:26

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's really cool and encouraging to hear. It's also kind of turning the page to the topic that I communicated with you about ahead of time, this whole concept of agency. That's a word that I think as people in culture are becoming a little bit more therapeutically informed. More people who know what we mean when we say agency than probably five or 10 years ago. For my purposes, as far as like defining agency, when you're thinking about agency or hoping or desiring to see a client show up with self-agency, what does that look like? How would you describe that trait or that process or that experience?

Thaddeus: 20:07

Most of the time, if not all the time, clients typically show up with the level of agency they had when they were a child. They're in this adult body, they're doing these adult things every day, going to work, paying a mortgage, falling in love, you know, building a family, worshiping God, all these things that make up our lives. And often, though, where they're stuck is they forget that they grew up. They now have power and choice and agency that they did not when they were 12 or 14 or 16. Because often when we come up against something in our life, whether it's shame at work or at home, or something happens where we go to an unhealthy place in our walk. Typically, when a client will bring something up like that, a shame moment, I'll ask, hey, let's say they were the client's 40 years old. I'll say, Hey, did that feel 40 years old or did that feel a different age? I don't ask, did I feel a younger age? I just say different because I don't want to taint taint it either either way. Most of the time, clients will say, Oh yeah, that felt like a teenager or college or even younger than a teenager. And usually what follows is they make an unhealthy decision because that's what the younger them would have done. And so when I think of agency, most of the time I'm meeting people that are acting in in distress or in shame or in hurt or pain. They're acting out of a younger agency rather than their present-day agency. Now, the rest of the time, they're usually acting out of their adult's agency. So that's what comes to mind for me when I think of agency and how that shows up in my office.

Greg: 21:54

So the differentiation between the parts of their lives where they're able to show up as an adult with adult-sized agency versus how they show up in your office with a younger type of agency. What explains the split between being able to show up in my adult self over here, but more showing up as a younger, kind of a younger experience over here?

Thaddeus: 22:20

So usually it's something, and well, let me back up. They can come into my office and their adult self agency, right?

Greg: 22:26

Sure.

Thaddeus: 22:27

But they might bring it up. Well, it took that, it took that to get to your office, right? Correct. Right. Yes, absolutely. But they'll come in and they'll describe something that was painful or shameful or hurtful, and then how they reacted to it. I differentiate between reacts reacting and responding, right? Usually the adult self-response, but our more immature parts react. So if they react, if we react to something usually and they go to shame, then that's usually when we're going to a younger part of ourselves. And that's where we risk responding or reacting actually in from a younger place. I encourage, first of all, I encourage the client, hey, what a great opportunity to learn something, right? Well instead of going to shame, let it be your teacher. And then if they can practice that, then they're raising their awareness around, oh, wait a minute, the next time they want to, you know, eat too much or drink too much or whatever it is that they go to to perhaps medicate or avoid, let that if they let that be their teacher, then they can say, Oh, well, maybe maybe I'm going to a younger place right now. What are some better choices as an adult that I can make? And even to have that inner child work or inner dialogue too. I tell them, hey, talk to that younger part of you and say, we're an adult now. We have power and choice and agency that you didn't, and I I'm not going to let anything happen to you. I'm going to take care of you.

Greg: 23:59

I I think that makes a lot of sense. And and the whole reason why what you were telling about the Christmas traditions kind of got my brain thinking that way is because as I think about agency, for me, it's kind of a developing experience. You started out with the thought, this is fun. I love Christmas. How would it be fun for me and my friend who also loves Christmas to do something that we'll enjoy? And then as things start happening, well, what if this? Okay, step toward that. And then what if this and step towards that? And then you come to find out along the way that it's not just meaningful for the two of you, it's becoming meaningful for a lot more people. And then now that's going to inform what do I do with that in the future? And when you're talking about the difference between responding and reacting, I mean, that's a responsive kind of trajectory through something that may have started out without a clear vision of if it was going to go anywhere or where it's going to go. And it just reminded me that so many people at the beginning of a therapeutic process don't have a clear vision sometimes, even of why I'm here. It's just something's off. There's something that's not working the way I want it to in my life. And so I'm going to ask somebody for help, which is a very adult thing to do. But then one of the things that you and I emailed about was I just was sharing like an experience that I've had. And I'm not a therapist, but I'm a coach and I will work with coaching clients. And I have experienced just the feeling when I, when I see, I because I don't know if you're you're like this. Sometimes I feel like I can see a shift happening right in front of me. And the adult that came in, all of a sudden they're even like their body language changes to something that looks a lot younger. And sometimes the tone of their voice changes and their expression changes. And when I see that happening, I'll sometimes just kind of gently point out what I noticed and ask them if they're aware of something, you know, did you notice something going on? And sometimes they'll just freeze. They've dropped into that place where they don't have adult agency or or even curiosity. And I have had plenty of times that I've found myself feeling stuck to and feeling very uncomfortable just sitting in it. And and I told you about that, and I kind of asked you about in the email. One thing that you said when you were emailing me back is I don't know that I feel as helpless 17 years in as I did five years in. Talk about that if you would. Like what changed, how was it like for you in the early years when you would feel like you were in the room with someone who was stuck or panicky or shutting down, how that affected you and then how it's come to affect you less and just being able to be with them?

Thaddeus: 26:39

Yeah, 17 years in I think with anything we do, if we stay at it long enough, we kind of find our rhythm and our stick and um things that we revisit. Because, you know, I while my clients are all individuals, we're all human. So we share a lot of the same struggles and hurts and pains. So so there's a kind of a rhythm to to being a therapist or a life coach that I think we find. Whereas early on, I haven't found that rhythm yet. And I also I just jumped into the deep end. I I didn't uh I now I started with a group. I I was invited into a group practice where we shared space, and I could certainly go to some of them if I needed to get some feedback, but otherwise it was all me. And it's just like okay, there are no training wheels on this. If I fall, I'd fall. So a lot of it was just learning how to hopefully be a good therapist, learn as you go, and back then feeling like I had to know what to say, putting that pressure on myself. I have to know what to say. That's why they're here, right? As I've gotten older in what I do, and and just learning from other people and the conversations with other counselors or therapists, or even do staffing some retreats, like not very similar to the retreats that you put on. And just getting to work with other life coaches or counselors in real time on a retreat, let's say. I've just picked up and soaked up so much over the years that I think has expanded my comfortability with myself and who's with me in the moment. As far as being stuck, one of my professors, I remember telling me to use whatever the person is giving you in the moment. Don't feel like you have to bring some always bring something in that they did not introduce. And so I've had any number of clients get stuck in the moment. And usually now I'm the one to say it first. I'll say, Hey, are you stuck? Because it's kind of obvious. And they'll say, Yeah, I feel stuck. And I said, Yeah, I feel stuck, which tells me you're probably stuck. And that's okay. Hey, why don't we just be stuck together? And it's kind of like literally, if you are stuck in a vehicle in the mud, right? And you're rolling back and forth, it's that rocking motion. I'm like, hey, well, tell me about stuck. What's that like for you? What's it like being stuck in here, not knowing where to go? And suddenly the vehicle's moving again.

Greg: 29:14

Yeah. So acknowledging the stuckness, talking about the stuckness is how you get unstuck sometimes.

Thaddeus: 29:20

Correct. Yeah.

Greg: 29:22

I want to go back to something you said. There was this feeling I have to know what to say because that's what the client expects. And I can really relate to that as a coach because when I was first starting, I put pressure on myself to A, figure out what's going on, B, figure out what they need, and C figure out how to get them there within this hour that we're in. So, really, a whole lot of the responsibility for this person's path forward, I was assuming. And how in the world did I think I was able or responsible to do those things? And so when I did some additional training and especially in a modality that that's a very curious modality, and starts out with, what do you want for yourself out of our time? Kind of like the question I asked you at the beginning. So many of my coaching clients that I'd already been working with said, I thought that was your job to tell me. And I I had to own some of that. Like, yeah, I've I've kind of taken that on myself, but I don't know your insides. Only you, you know, you and God know your insides. And so you're the expert on you. And so what are you noticing? You know, what what are you noticing that's brought you in here today? The the peace and the ability to relax and be with somebody, because I I mean, that alone for a lot of the people I'm sure that we both see is something that's fairly new, is someone who is comfortable just being with.

Thaddeus: 30:51

Yeah, I I love that question. What do you want for our time together today? What I'll ask, I usually do a brief emotions check-in and then I'll say, is there anywhere you need to go today in particular? Because I'll I'll usually have a couple of places I can go from things we have been working on. And back to your point of assumption, there have been times in the past where I look at my list and after they do an emotions check in, I jump right into the list and I've gotten any number of times through the years, five minutes from the end of a session, and great work has been done, but then the person might say, Oh, and I really need to talk about This. Yeah. And I'll say, Oh my goodness, that's so much. That's such such a big, bigger conversation than five minutes. I'm so sorry. I should have started by asking, what do you need right now? Rather than what I would march into again is what we were already working on. And so it was a furtherance of that. Still, still good work. Still good work, but I didn't take the time to stop years ago and ask, hey, what do you really want for yourself for today? And there are times where people say, No, I got nothing. What do you have? And then we're usually after the races.

Greg: 32:08

But well, and then that comes back to agency, right? Because if you ask them that and then they say, Yeah, I've been thinking about this, and I'm going to say this is what I want to talk about. And even in those times when they say, I got nothing in particular, well, looking at the past sessions, we could talk about this or this or this. Do any of those sound like what you want? And now they're it's a multiple choice question. But they're still exercising agency, which is still an empowerment that you're inviting them to take on.

Thaddeus: 32:37

Yeah, absolutely. And the extreme opposite of all of that is I've learned that if I'm working harder than the client, I'm working too hard.

Greg: 32:46

Could you say more about that?

Thaddeus: 32:48

Yeah. When I said, and then you picked up on, you know, I I felt earlier in the first five years, I felt like I've got to have the answers, or I was putting pressure on myself. And I would say the majority of my clients through the years, they're here because they want to do work, you know, and they may be scared. And so sometimes we're or depressed, and so sometimes it's a slow go, and that's fine. But every now and then I've had a client who will sit there and they will do nothing at all. I I'll ask, you know, why are you here? You know, where do you want to go? And years ago, I would have pushed and prodded and pulled teeth and been really exhausted at the end of a session like that. And that's when I realized I'm working harder than them. This is their work. Why am I working so hard? As far as what I just said about exhaustion, I could literally have five clients in a row, and everyone is just doing their work and they're involved and engaged, and I'm energized at the end of five clients. And then I could have two clients and be exhausted if both of them are not doing their work and literally just be done for the day.

Greg: 33:57

So well, when you talk about realizing that you're working harder than harder than the client, I re I can relate to that a lot. I'd love to be able to say that when I struggle with that more, it was because I cared so much about the client that I just was so passionate about the progress that I was hoping to be able to support them in. But really, it was a whole lot more about what I was thinking and feeling about myself. Right. So that's a whole, I mean, that's me showing up with a younger sense of agency and being reactive instead of responsive. And then just to be able to say, you know what? I'm going to trust that if a client is dissatisfied with the work they're doing with me, that it's their responsibility to tell me. But it really, when I'm working harder than they are, it's pulling me out of even being able to attune to them, to pay attention to them, you know, to give them the kind of presence that's a huge helpful part of this.

Thaddeus: 34:52

Yeah, I think I think what's helped me start to turn that corner is similar to what you were just saying. I I would say in the first five, seven years or so when I was putting that pressure on me, that's when I was working harder than some clients. Most of my clients, like I said, were there to be engaged and to and do work. And it's when I started to realize, oh, this isn't really on me. I'm here to try to help them get to their goals. I'm here to try to help them unpack and feel or whatever it is they need to do. I think that's when I began to realize, oh, yeah, I've been working a lot harder than some of my clients. So I think it they went kind of hand in hand.

Greg: 35:34

What's it like for you when you have been working with someone who has come in with a really, you know, low amount of capacity for that? And then you start to see them remaining in their full adult selves. They're starting to be able to verbalize intentionality and what they want for themselves and start to respond rather than to react.

Thaddeus: 35:56

Oh, it's oh it's wonderful to see people start to get some traction and realize you know, once they've stretched a little bit, they can stretch a little bit more, stretch a little bit more, and they continue to grow. And once they get that momentum, it doesn't mean we don't ever slide back a bit, but no, it's a wonderful feeling that people really start to see breakthroughs in their journey and feel more confident in who God has made them to be and why they're here and they see a way forward in life, or maybe they did it before. It's really it's very rewarding, it's very honoring, you know, to be a part of that.

Greg: 36:33

Do they tend to see it for themselves, or is it sometimes something you have to reflect back and point out? Hey, are you noticing what I'm noticing?

Thaddeus: 36:41

It's a both and it just depends on the person. You know, I I do a lot. So since 2012, I was trained in as a level two EMDR therapist, which is uh for those in your audience that don't know, it's a it's a trauma-based therapy. Not just for trauma, but it it's it's often used for trauma. And so some of my clients when I'm doing EMDR with them, EMDR is such I call it a laser focused therapy. It just gets right in there right to it. And and I've seen just things come off of people and they're different people and and they notice it and they're like, I just feel so different and I feel so much more confident, right? And then there are people who sometimes it's harder for them to see because if they let's say have a slip or they fall back into something, whatever their their poison is, they'll say they'll come in feeling shame and they'll say, Ah, but I haven't I had a slip. It's been eight months since I've done that. What is wrong? And I'll even just narrow it down a little. Hey, can you tell me a little bit more about that? About how long were you engaged in this in the slip, right? Oh, it could be 20 minutes, it could be an hour, whatever. And I'll just and that's when I reflect back to that. So let's say it was eight months, that they were sober, and I'll just say, so for seven months, twenty-nine days, twenty-three hours, and thirty minutes, you've been sober and you're focused on this little 30-minute window.

Greg: 38:10

Exactly.

Thaddeus: 38:11

But you're missing how much you've grown. Or another way I'll explain this, I know this is audio, but if if your audience can picture uh almost like a a cyclone or a tornado, right? And if you st if if you think of that as your journey, rather than just a linear line moving forward in your journey and your walk, think of you're starting at the top in your journey and you're walking circular, but then you're going downward, like like a funnel, right? It's going downward. And and sometimes guys will come in and they'll say, I slipped up and I'm way up here. They think it puts them back at square one at the top. And I was like, no, you're not at square one. You're about three levels deep in your work, and you came back around to whatever it is you struggle with. Okay, you but there's something to learn there. You went to a younger part of yourself, maybe, or it was the addictive brain taking over, but there's something to learn, but you haven't lost all that ground.

Greg: 39:09

Yeah.

Thaddeus: 39:09

And so that that's I would say how sometimes I'm reflecting it back to them, their growth. Usually it's when they're in distress that they all growth they think has gone out the window.

Greg: 39:18

And we say similar things in our community too. And I think that's why having an attuned therapist, but also being a part of a supportive community that listens is so helpful because I've heard I've heard people talking about coming back from a slip and recovery meeting and just sitting in the circle saying, But you know, I yeah, I drove into the ditch, but when I got back on the road, I wasn't back where I started. I was back on the road right where I drove off the road, you know, and I kept going. When people say things like that, I hear I and I see other people perk up and they're like, Oh, so you don't go, is this is not like shoots and ladders where you like you slide, yeah, slide all the way back to the very beginning. No, that's not that's not how it works.

Thaddeus: 40:02

Or like Monopoly, where go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200, right? If you we think we get put into purgatory.

Greg: 40:11

Yeah. Well, I love the things that you've given us to reflect on. It takes me back in my mind to a quote that I've come to love, Victor Frankel. In between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space is my power to choose my response. And in my choice is my growth and freedom. Working with people who have had compulsive or addictive or unwanted experiences in their life, I mean, the trigger and the reaction just seems like it's there's no space in between it at all. It's just this happens, and before I know it, I'm doing this. And walking alongside people to help them be able to see, no, there's it may not seem like a lot, but there is a little bitty bit amount of space in there. And you get to choose what you do next. And and learning how to choose a response rather than be led away by a reaction. It's just so life-giving and powerful to see people start to believe that and then start to act on it.

Thaddeus: 41:07

Yeah, it's you just said do the next right thing. It's Ecclesiastes when Solomon, who's called the teacher in Ecclesiastes, that's why I always say, hey, don't let it be your shame, let it be your teacher. There's a section where he tries different things, he gathers riches, he builds a vineyard, grows a vineyard, creates his own wine, architecture, and wisdom in academia and women. And he's very methodical. And he's in my judgment, he's very scientific. He's just and he's testing each one. And at the end of everything he tries, in my translation, what he's saying is, wow, that's amazing. Look at all this gold and silver I've got. This is awesome. And yet it's not ultimate fulfillment. Revere God and do the next right thing. And then he does it with vineyards and wine. Oh, look what I've done. This is amazing. But there's nothing new under the sun, right? And then even with women, you know, he had 300 wives, 700 concubines. But he says, Oh, yeah, that's great. But revere God, do the next right thing. And we're also told that a righteous man falls seven times and gets up again. It doesn't say a righteous man falls and gets up a scoundrel and walks a little further. Now he's righteous again. So do the next right thing. You we always have that choice, even if we've made five bad choices, because the sixth one can be the right thing.

Greg: 42:29

And even if we've made five bad choices and are currently having to live with the consequences of those five bad choices, that doesn't mean that we can't choose the next right thing, you know, while living with the fallout from the things that I did. Well, you've given us a lot of cool things that we've been able to reflect on. And I just appreciate you taking some time, Thaddeus. It's been great to catch up and to just sort of dive in and let the conversation go where it did. I I think that people sitting in are going to hear a lot of things that hopefully spur some curiosity for their own stories. And if they're not already working with somebody to help them kind of navigate their way through that, that they'll find that. But thanks for giving us a chance to put that out there for people.

Thaddeus: 43:13

Thanks, Steve. It's been great sitting with you and your audience and just thanks for having me. For sure.

Greg: 43:18

We're we're gonna put some links to the book and some of the Christmas stuff in Franklin for people who are interested in that. Okay. I know if anybody is one-tenth as in love with Christmas as my wife Stacey is, then they're gonna want to check that out.

Thaddeus: 43:33

About five years ago, uh, I forget the name of the site, but they're a travel site, and Franklin, Tennessee was third in the world for the place to visit for Christmas. I think Germany. There was a town in Germany. Anyhow, Franklin, Tennessee.

Greg: 43:48

Well, I've been to downtown Franklin. It makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God bless you.

Thaddeus: 43:55

You too.