51 | Sam Black: Safe People, Safe Places, Safe Process

It's critical for ministry leaders to understand their responsibility and opportunity to help people in their churches who are sexually struggling. That was a key theme in our rich conversation with Sam Black, Director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes. Sam explained that empathy plus action breaks porn’s grip, and how churches can become truly safe communities for strugglers and spouses. We talked about practical tools, trauma-informed insights, and a clear path toward allyship, healing, and prevention.

Some of the themes from our conversation included...
• Early exposure + repetition + pain = a common pathway into pornography.
• Allyship and accessibility work better than traditional accountability.
• How mind-body-spirit healing helps interrupt the addiction cycle.
• What constitutes safe people in safe places with a safe process.
• How church leaders often unintentionally add harm to betrayed spouses.
• Sex (or more sex) is not the solution to porn use.
• How to find available, practical, ready-to-use tools for pastors and leaders.
• How healing it is when leaders  admit mistakes & repair ruptures.

#samblack #covenanteyes #thehealingchurch #pornographyaddiction #therapy #healing #addiction #trauma #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Covenant Eyes website

Five Stones pastor kit (FREE from Covenant Eyes)

The Healing Church book (Amazon)

Chapters

• 0:00 Episode Introduction
• 4:00 What Sam Black really wants...
• 6:42 Exposure + Repetition + Trauma
• 11:26 How addiction develops in early years
• 15:43 Accountability or accessibility?
• 23:12 Using resources to get beneath the surface
• 27:39 Sex & porn aren't solutions
• 31:00 Safe people, places, processes in churches
• 34:43 Safety for betrayed partners
• 38:15 Making repair as a ministry leader
• 41:17 Resources to help leaders
• 46:40 Closing thoughts

Transcript

Greg: 0:00

Is that a Star Wars lunchbox on the shelf above you?

Sam: 0:04

It is a Star Wars lunchbox.

Greg: 0:06

That's awesome. That's incredible.

Sam: 0:08

Down below, I have my Darth Vader over here and then Mandalorian helmet.

Greg: 0:17

Oh my gosh... You're like a full-on nerd.

Speaker: 0:21

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg: 0:34

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. Today is episode 51. It's called Safe People, Safe Places, Safe Process. And our guest is Sam Black. Sam is the director of recovery education at Covenant Eyes, a company that's been around for a quarter century, and they exist to help people overcome pornography and be restored and transformed. Almost 2 million people have utilized their tools and resources in an effort to reject pornography, realizing that it's an unhealthy presence in their lives and to seek to live whole and live lives of integrity. Sam has been with Covenant Eyes for 19 of those 25 years. It's been really cool for me to see the trajectory that Covenant Eyes has had in their growth, more than just being a tool that people put on their phones and their computers and their other devices to discourage them from looking at porn. Covenant Eyes has become a community. They have tons of resources. They have tons of information to help people understand not only how to say no to and walk away from pornography, but also to realize what's underneath it, how to pursue and move toward the healthy things in life and not just away from the unhealthy things. There's so much resonance between how we look at the problem of pornography and the solutions for it and the way that they do. And so it was just really great to have a conversation. I've known Sam, I think at least 10 years. We have bumped into each other several times at different events. It was great to get to see Sam back in September when we were at the American Association for Christian Counselors World Conference. And I was able to catch up with Sam there and tell him how much I'd like to have him on the podcast, particularly to talk about a book that he wrote a couple of years ago called The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography and How to Fix It. This is a resource that's a little bit off the regular beaten path in the area of pornography, unwanted sexual behavior, and recovery from it. Instead of being written for the person who's struggling, this is written for people who lead church and faith environments where these people live. And so this is for the pastor, this is for the ministry leader, because there's a lot of things that historically the church has gotten wrong about how we address porn and sexual brokenness. Thankfully, we can see a lot more things trending in a healthier direction, but there's still a lot that we have to learn. And Sam wrote this book in 2023, The Healing Church, in an effort to give a lot of insight, information, encouragement to people who are in ministry positions, because let's face it, people who are serving in ministry leadership have not received enough training in order to be effectively trauma-informed and understand addiction and understand recovery. All the things that the people in their churches are going through in droves. There are people who are working to help fill those gaps, and Sam's one of them. I didn't know until we started talking how much of a Star Wars fan Sam is, like me, so that was fun. But you'll just love his heart and you'll really hear his desire not only for the good for people who are seeking to recover, but also for the people who are the helpers, who are the spiritual leaders. It's episode 51. Our guest is Sam Black. It's called Safe People, Safe Places, Safe Process. And it starts right now. Sam Black, welcome to What We Really Want. Hey, Greg, it's always good to talk with you.

Sam: 4:05

We we just uh saw each other at the AECC conference in Nashville, and I'm glad we get to continue our conversations.

Greg: 4:12

Me too. At the time we're recording this, I think it's been about four or five weeks since we saw each other in Nashville. And gosh, I think before that, it had been maybe eight or nine years since we'd seen each other in person. Was it that long? I think it might have been the set-free summit in North Carolina, which was back in 2016.

Sam: 4:33

That was 2016. That's right. But then you and I and Nate Larkin and others were at the conference, the men's conference in Alabama.

Greg: 4:42

That's right. Yeah, the uh Ironworks men's conference down in Andalusia. Yeah, we've got some good friends down in Andalusia. I had forgotten about that one. And you were doing music there, right? Yeah, yeah. My good friend Michael Adler put a band together and asked me to come play keys. So good memory, better than mine. Well, Sam, I'm looking forward to talking with you about a lot of things. But before we get to anything, let me just ask you right off the bat, what do you really want out of our conversation?

Sam: 5:08

Yeah, that's such a good question. I love I love that you start off the show of it that way. And I think the two things that I would hope for most is for empathy and action. And that can come in in a number of ways. Yeah. But it might be that you need to have some empathy for yourself as you're listening, you know, to understand, man, I got set up for this probably at a very young age, but I need to take some action to restore what's been lost. It might be that you're a leader or a pastor in your church, and maybe this doesn't really has never been your issue, and I don't really understand why someone would struggle so intently with pornography. So understanding more about it can create empathy, but then also lead to action that sets people free from their bonds.

Greg: 5:59

I love that. And I love your use of those two things together because empathy without action feels great, but doesn't really help lead us out of the stuckness. And action without empathy can feel like it's got all the tenderness of a sledgehammer.

Sam: 6:17

And honestly, neither one work. You can have all the oh man, I that stinks that I'm here, but oh well, I'll I'll just try harder. And and that never works. And then, hey, you just need to quit that. Don't do that. God's not for that doesn't help either. So how can we how can we combine the two and really make meaningful change in people's lives?

Greg: 6:42

For all the people who, as you said, were set up for this, and I was gonna ask you what you mean by the this, and then you said just a life that seems like it's been just ruled and and and controlled by pornography.

Sam: 6:54

You know, there's a con we we've seen this over and over again, and and some of your listeners who who tune in a lot probably have got, yep, I know this. And others who don't haven't, maybe this will be the first time you've heard this. But there is a common formula for people who find themselves trapped in pornography, right? It's that early exposure, the ongoing use and repetition of use of pornography, and often some trauma and some pain. Typically happens at a young age, but can happen otherwise. I was 10 years old when I first saw pornography. We were talking earlier about the year Star Wars came out in 1977, right? Yeah, that was also the same year that I saw pornography for the first time. And I can remember walking out of my home in Florida, and my brother, who is 10 years older than me, and he and his friend were leaning against a car looking at a magazine, but looking at it sideways, and that didn't make any sense. How can you read sideways? And I asked, but I sure didn't see curiosity, right? Totally innocent curiosity, yes, right? Yeah, and then they turned it around, same curiosity at work that was natural in me, right? Right. That instead of looking away, I stepped forward. Sure, you did. Yeah. Now I just told you a story about the first time I saw pornography, and I can't tell you anything else about that day. And that is so common in the p stories of people who find themselves trapped today. Yeah, if they think about it, they can go, I have a memory of being exposed to pornography. It's an imprintation, and it it's uh it's a hyper stimulus, and what I saw was a magazine, right?

Greg: 8:36

Nothing like what they're exposed to today.

Sam: 8:38

It's so much worse today, right? So much more impactful. That super stimulus was just and I was never prepared for it. I grew up in a Christian home, but also very an isolated kind of let's not, we don't talk about those kinds of things, right? So I got set up. I got set up on a day that I never anticipated that that's the day that would change some of the trajectory in my life, a big part of my life, right?

Greg: 9:08

Gosh, I'm just I'm still thinking about how substantial 1977 was in your life. I mean, there were two major things that were life-changing, right? I mean, not to not to make light uh of or to elevate unnecessarily, but being a kid and seeing just the masterpiece of new, you know, motion picture technology that Star Wars was, that changed your life as a boy. And so did seeing that centerfold. That just struck me. I mean, two very different things that made uh a lifelong impression.

Sam: 9:44

Absolutely. I also came from, though it was a Christian home, it was a hypocritically violent home. And so my father grew up with abuse, his father grew up with abuse, and the cycle has continued for generations. So I really had some opportunities to understand that I could have continued that cycle. But nonetheless, where that abuse came in of hitting, yelling, name-calling, those kinds of things, things that I should have received that I didn't, pornography became an escape. And I didn't even realize that's what I was doing. I had a friend, and his dad had pornography that was falling out of his closet. If you imagine your normal basic closet with, you know, you've got the folding doors that open and there's a shelf up top, it looked a lot like a waterfall. There were stacks of pornography that were like flowing over and a pile of it on the floor. And I could take anything I wanted, and I did. And when I felt angry and frustrated or bullied or sad or depressed, or I'm not worthy, or all these other things, the pornography could create this escape where I didn't have to feel that. I could numb out, I could feel elation, and that's what we often miss in the church today. That formula of early exposure, some ongoing use through adolescence, and some using that not just because it feels good, but because it provides a means of escape from the things that I don't want to feel.

Greg: 11:26

Well, see, you've named that so well. Before we hit record, you were telling me that since your book came out that we'll talk about soon, you've done about 200 of these interviews. And so you talk about this a lot. So it's not surprising that you would have a very eloquent and concise way of describing this is what was going on. The thing that strikes me is you knew none of that when you were 10. You know, you didn't said I didn't realize what I was doing, but something in you knew this is it, right? There was something instinctive that was happening, no words, but like whatever's off, whatever feels bad, this is the thing that's going to take care of that. You know, this always and the strategy was born.

Sam: 12:17

Yeah. You know, children have an amazing capacity to survive. Yeah, they do. To to get through whatever they're going through, whether it's bullying or abuse or neglect, uh, maybe they come from a really good family. They don't they didn't experience what I experienced, but there's ways and things that they don't really know how to deal with. And man, this feels good. And whatever I'm feeling a little down, it I'm just running to hear if I feel bored or frustrated, whatever it is. These triggers vary for people. We all have wounds, regardless of where we come from. And we have to understand those wounds, we have to think about those. Why do I do what I do when I say I don't want to do it? Yeah. This is Paul speaking, right?

Greg: 13:09

And that's the Romans 7 dilemma that so many of us can relate to.

Sam: 13:13

Right. And so I I think if we bear into it a little bit, we can begin to understand more about why we do it, and then take steps to mitigate that. That when I feel angry or frustrated, or do I need to self-medicate with food or shopping or or work or exercise or alcohol or drugs or something else or pornography? How can I learn to sit with that emotion? Maybe call up my friend Greg and say, hey man, this is what I'm feeling today. Yeah. This is what I'm thinking about.

Greg: 13:54

Well, and what and and so many people don't do that. A, because some of them don't even think of that as an option because it was never modeled, it was never taught. But the ones that do think of it, there's a fear, there's a terror, all the things that could go wrong if I let somebody else in on this that keeps them from doing something that inside they but they probably desperately want to do.

Sam: 14:18

If you really knew me, would you really love me?

Greg: 14:21

Right. And the assumption is probably not- you would accept me. Probably not.

Sam: 14:24

Yeah. And we've often learned that because you know I was a great performer. I was the golden child in my family. There were rebels. I had four older brothers. There we had some rebels in our family. And the rebels are the most honest. They're the ones saying something is terribly wrong here. I'm not happy about this, and I'm kicking back. Yeah. The golden child comes on the side and says, I can maneuver through the rules, I can maneuver through reading the room to understand when violence or other things might happen. I can navigate that well if I pay attention. Yeah. I can put on a show that says, Yep, that's they're doing exactly what I want them to do. And that's what I would do. That's I was a very good performer, very good people pleaser. And when you get an opportunity, not every, and and we're gonna go, let me go back to that. Let's call a friend.

Greg: 15:23

Yeah.

Sam: 15:23

Uh, not everybody needs to know everything about you. Nope. But somebody needs to know everything about you.

Greg: 15:29

Somebody needs to have all access.

Sam: 15:32

The value of that is that you actually have an opportunity and a safe person to be fully known and fully loved.

Greg: 15:40

Yeah.

Sam: 15:40

To know God's full love for you.

Greg: 15:42

Yeah. I love some of the language that has evolved in this space in which we work over the years, because everybody almost to a man who comes into our community looking for help with his sexual compulsion or addiction, unwanted behavior, one of the first things that he says he needs is accountability. And and that And doesn't even know what that means. Well, or he knows what it's meant to that point. And that's why his eyes are twitching, right? Because his experience with accountability has been a dumpster fire because it's just, it's basically the sexual behavior version of a cuss jar. It's like if I am honest, I'm going to get punished. And back in 2012, when Michael Kustik wrote Surfing for God, he talked about the cop coach and cardiologist styles of accountability. And he and he said in that book that really maybe a better way of describing it than accountability is accessibility. And that's what you're talking about, is giving people access. And I even love that Covenant Eyes over the years has shifted, at least my perception is y'all have shifted, and I'm guessing it was probably intentional, to using ally terminology more than accountability partner because that's really very intentional. Yeah, because that's suggesting that's what we really need. We need somebody that we see as an ally, a co-laborer, a co-traveler with us in this, and not somebody who's standing over us wagging a finger and just waiting for us to screw it up.

Sam: 18:38

An ally has your back. They know your goals, they want to see you succeed, they know your faults, and they're there to stand with you and thicken thin.

Greg: 18:46

Yeah. Well, Sam, 1977 was the year you were first exposed to pornography. 2023 was the year that your book, The Healing Church, What Churches Get Wrong About Pornography, came out. And so that's 46 years. There's a lot of life that happened in the span between You make me sound really old. Well, you're you and I are about the same age. Yeah, we're just a couple of years apart. But before we go into anything specific from the book, what were the next four decades like for you navigating through pornography and youth and adolescence and young adulthood and the brokenness that came with that and led you to what you're doing now, which is working with covenant eyes. And yeah, and do that in just a couple minutes.

Sam: 19:34

Nothing like a great challenge. Man, I've got to shorten a story and I didn't tell you I was gonna ask you that. No. Pornography followed me through high school to college and into my marriage. And I'm among the most fortunate people you're ever gonna meet because by this time I've pretty much become agnostic. God's probably there. I don't think he really cares that much if he does at all. Now, listen, I grew up in a home where the Bible played on records. So I can navigate my way through the Bible very well. Literally, I heard it on an ongoing basis. But here I am, and and and studies show that this ongoing use of pornography is has a direct relation to prayer life, scripture reading, whether you'll serve in a volunteer role in your church, and doubts about God and and his plan, proven by a University of Oklahoma study. I again am probably among the most fortunate people you're gonna meet because my wife is taking our babies to a local church. And she comes to me one day and she says, Hey, there's a group that's meeting on marriage, and I think you know we could really work on our marriage, and I'm like, Yeah, I know we can do that. Would you be willing to go with me to this study? I said, Yeah, absolutely. And so we walk into this classroom and the facilitators close the door and they look at the class with a big smile and say, This is a safe place.

Greg: 21:08

Wow.

Sam: 21:09

What is said here stays here. And when we're really honest with one another and care for one another, and we're open with one another, then we can really find healing in our relationships. What? What this isn't this isn't the church I grew up in. What's going on here? Right. Well, it turned out that these were 12 steppers that were facilitating the class, and they had gone through addiction and they knew that the recovery process isn't just for people who have addictions, it's for everybody. That's right. Like if you want to live a better life, understand recovery so you can really bear in, be open, be honest, get real. Uh recognize that you need to submit to God, that you need to submit to one another. Oh my goodness, there are so many beautiful lessons in the recovery journey for everyone.

Greg: 22:01

Yeah.

Sam: 22:01

And so that was also, though, where I learned that pornography could be addictive. And that was a great relief because that meant evolution didn't make me this way, God didn't make me this way. Wow. And I didn't have to stay this way. And so with some brothers, I got to take a walk toward freedom. And little by little I got led to covenant eyes. That's a whole nother story. But man, I spent my first 18 years as a journalist. And God just says, Sam, I've got a plan for that. You think you have you know your ways, but let me show you what I want to do. So God just used those talents to create the healing church, another book called The Porn Circuit. And just been able to create now. I serve as director of recovery education at Covenant Eyes. We've created 50 different courses within the Victory app, which are all free. And you can download the Victory app for free. It's an amazing opportunity to learn and grow, check in with an ally. The tools that's that's in that app is just so amazing.

Greg: 23:04

I'm glad that you mentioned your role as recovery education director, because I think that there, well, there's a criticism or just an uncertainty that I've heard people communicate over the years about resources like Covenant Eyes that do filtering accountability. People, if they're taking a surface look at it, might just kind of consider it a behavior modification band-aid, right? And I would, and and I would even say it it definitely could be that, as could any resource. I mean, depending on what your expectation is, where your heart is, you could use covenant eyes and say, well, this is going to keep me from looking at porn. And I'm like, I guarantee you that it will not if you are highly motivated to find pornography. But I describe tools like covenant eyes as a speed bump on the interstate. You know, it's like it's an opportunity. Have you ever been driving and kind of gotten hypnotized by the road and realized that, like, oh my gosh, I don't remember the last five miles? And it's kind of that's the the brain space when we're getting into our ritual, we're getting into our cycle and checking out. And then I grab my phone and I'm about to go somewhere, and then I'm like, wait a second, somebody's gonna know about this and somebody's gonna ask me about this. And it gives me that moment to say, is this what I really want to do right now? And it kind of like hitting a speed bump on the interstates, like it kind of shakes me back to reality. But you're describing what you guys have been working on for many years now that goes even deeper than that. 25 years. Yeah, that goes even deeper than that, of not only as we're looking to modify some of this harmful behavior, but let's learn what's been causing it in the first place or contributing to it in the first place. Because that's how it's gonna be more than a band-aid. That's gonna how they're all these parts are gonna serve each other. And I just really appreciate that whenever a resource provider is not just staying on the surface, but helping people get underneath the surface. Because I think that's where the real healing happens.

Sam: 25:08

Yeah. And Greg, we're very specific in how we do this. We believe in a mind-body-spirit model. All three need healing. Our body, literally, our brain has been changed. It's impacted our spirit with what we're thinking, with our mind of how we've been thinking and the lies we've been believing. So we need to heal all aspects of that. So we come at it from a very Christian scripture point of view, with understanding that the recovery sciences only bolster what scripture says. And we want to really help people move to a that again, that deeper understanding. Admittedly, there have been we we've heard many reports of people say, Man, I installed Covenant Eyes, I got an ally. And that's I have not looked at pornography in a year. We we get that, we get those emails every day. But at the same time, it it's different for for individuals, right? So, like you said, sometimes that craving, that desire for relief, that addiction cycle that is that is moved, you've been triggered, you begin role-playing, you begin thinking how I'm gonna get there, acting out, then the shame comes, then it all it reaffirms a belief system that says, see, you can never live up to what God has for you. Yeah, and it just keeps going around in a circle.

Greg: 26:40

That's right.

Sam: 26:40

Well, we want to help people understand that cycle so they can find the escape ramps off of it. Because if I don't do something about that trigger, it is likely that no wall I build will be tall enough. I may not act out on my devices. But listen, I've from my home, 15 minutes down the road, is a pornography store right off the interstate. Nothing's stopping me from going there. That's right. Covenant Ice will not stop me from going there. That's right. But the commitment that I've learned, the growth that I'm taking through understanding, the relationship that I have with my allies, the place, things that I've put in place allow me that the boundaries that I put in place. I don't go to that store.

Greg: 27:30

Yeah. And you don't go to that store because the boundaries you've put in place, the resources that you use, the therapy you've received, the spiritual healing that has taken place in your life, all those have worked together to help you be able to identify and move towards what you really want. Right. Which is oh my goodness. Which is why we call this show that. When people are going to pornography, I mean, you said very well what's happening in the early days with the curiosity, the early exposure. But there are people who had that curiosity and that early exposure who did not become addicted. People who had good, connected, healthy attachment, they had less than average childhood trauma. They were taught how to regulate their emotions and ask to have their needs met. And so as they came to realize that, hey, pornography is not giving me anything good, they were able to walk away from it. And it didn't have an addictive hold in their lives. But for the people who do, it's that third element that you mentioned of the trauma. It feels like it's doing one thing, but it's really doing a lot of other things and it's harming us while it helps us. And so all of these things and the resources that support the direction we're going, that's it's all part of the big picture.

Sam: 28:45

All right, Greg, I love what we really want. Read the scripture that helps back that up.

Greg: 28:50

Yeah, it's in Galatians 5 when Paul says, I say, walk by the spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, for the desires of the flesh are against the spirit, and the desires of the spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Sam: 29:06

To keep you from doing the things you want to do. How many times have men and women said to themselves, I'm done with this? Yeah. And they've promised themselves and God and others that they'll never go back to pornography again. What they truly want is not to go back to pornography, but they're fighting this war. A war that is in the flesh. He says there in the flesh, right? Literally, our brains have been compromised to desire pornography, even when we've said this is not what I want.

Greg: 29:44

Yeah. It's huge. And and to answer your question, and I don't think it was meant to be rhetorical. I mean, how many times do some people say that in a given day? You know, never again. God, take this away. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. Why can't I stop doing this? And so to come out of isolation, to find your people who are going to be able to give what the the 12-steppers who were leading that marriage group that you talked about way back then offered, which was safety. You know, there's no way we're going to, you know, stick our head up out of the gopher hole and risk it getting lopped off. But if we think that it's going to be safe, then yeah, we're we're going to maybe dip our toe in the pool. And then if that's honored, then we're going to do it again and we're going to go a little bit deeper. And then by doing that, we're going to have the opportunity for the chaos to settle down and for us to not only get freedom from that chaos of what we were doing, but that gives us clarity and direction to move in the area of what we've been searching for the whole time.

Sam: 30:52

Safe people with a safe place and a safe process. They all go together. That's right. If I don't have a safe place, then I don't really feel that I can open up with those safe people, right? Yeah. But if it's just a bunch of chatter, a bunch of talking about, man, I I messed up again last night. Yeah. And I don't have a process, a safe process leads me to understanding why I messed up last night. Yeah. And how I can take meaningful steps toward freedom day by day, then I don't really get anywhere. So we don't we need not only a safe place. But a safe process.

Greg: 31:31

Okay. So that's a perfect segue into what I wanted to ask you about from your book. We need safe people in the safe places in the midst of a safe process. And where else should be the safest place on earth to ask for and receive help on this than our churches, you know, for Christians. I want to quote something that you said in your book. You said most pastors, I'm going to pause after those two words and just say this. You very kindly said in your in the chapter of your book where you're talking to church leaders, ministry leaders, that you're not trying to throw anybody under the bus. Okay. But we also do want to recognize that there's very often a difference between intent and impact in situations. And that's what you talk a lot about in that chapter in your book. And you say most pastors receive little preparation to address the legitimate needs of spouses betrayed by porn strongholds. Pastors often rely on personal intuition, discussions within their spheres, and the general marriage books they have read. And unfortunately, they have been misled. And so, Sam, like I mentioned a minute ago, we would all agree that the church should feel like one of the safest places on earth. But this one thing makes many partners of people who struggle with sexual brokenness feel anything but safe in their own churches.

Sam: 32:57

Yeah. And this has happened in churches that I've that I've attended as well. As I was interviewing people and families and counselors, they were telling me story after story after story of this sort of same thing. Yeah. And often it is that sex is the fix for pornography. Yep. And that's sort of like putting gas on a fire. It's just not, it's not effective. Sex isn't the problem. He has or she been looking at pornography since probably childhood and that has followed them through adolescence. Yeah. They were watching pornography when they were dating. They were watching pornography when they proposed. They were watching pornography probably the week of their of their wedding, you know, when everything is supposed to be wonderful, right? So when the the spouse says yes, or when the spouse says no, it doesn't make any difference. They're probably still watching pornography then too. So it's not that, wow, if they just had another orgasm, suddenly all this would go away. That's right. Because they might have been accustomed to that multiple times a day. Exactly. Etc.

Greg: 34:09

At the height of my addiction, I mean, there were, I don't know how many times that Stacy and I had had sex and I was acting out later that day. It's not about a deficiency of sexual release. It might feel like that for a while, but once you're addicted, you kind of get clued in on the fact that there's something much more powerful going on.

Sam: 34:30

There is something much more powerful going on. We need to address it. All right. Let's stay on, let's stay on the track we're on for just a few minutes. It's one of the reasons I invited Dr. Sherry Keffer to write a chapter in the book. She is probably among the most foremost knowledgeable understanding of the impact of betrayal with pornography and uh unwanted sexual behaviors. So she wrote some beautiful, a beautiful book called Intimate Deception. Fantastic book. And so I invited her to really help ministry leaders understand the impact that ongoing pornography use and other things can have on a spouse and why sex is not the answer. How does it wound them specifically, spiritually, mentally, physically, etc.? There's a lot going on there. It's worth the read in that chapter to read her book. Yeah. So I just want to emphasize that that many of them, especially women who have discovered their spouse's ongoing, not only ongoing pornography use, not just the discovery of it, but the repeated, oh, I slipped again, or oh no, I'm not doing anything. Everything is fine, only to find out that that's not true at all. Many of those women can be a diagnosed with PTSD. It's just so important.

Greg: 35:50

Over 70%, a lot of the studies show. And then well-meaning, and and we're going to give the benefit of the doubt, okay? Well-meaning ministry leaders who they're not trauma informed, they don't understand this is not about sex. Nothing was taught in seminary about this. Maybe there was one elective class on marriage in the family, which just skimmed the surface, if any, if even that. And so they turn to 1 Corinthians 7 and figure, well, maybe more sex is the solution, maybe lack of sex. And then you get like the stories in in this chapter in your book where, you know, a woman's pouring her heart out to the pastor, and the next day his wife and the assistant pastor's wife come over and they bring her lingerie. Yeah. To well be sexier and then that'll fix it, which which suggests that it's your fault in the first place, because you obviously weren't being sexual enough. A pastor.

Sam: 36:40

And then listen, you just need to forgive him and just move on. Yeah, just forgive him and move on.

Greg: 36:45

Sure. I want to read another thing that you said in the chapter. You said, as male leaders in the church, we've often allowed our experiences of sexual desire, rejection, and release to cloud our judgment and our responsibilities, not only as men, but followers of Christ. And this has led to a false equation used widely in many churches that sex on tap is the simple answer to many marital issues, including defeating pornography use. And the only thing wrong with that equation is that it's completely wrong.

Sam: 37:17

I'm glad you put that in perspective.

Greg: 37:19

And it reminded me, Sam, of something that another Sam said in a very important book when Sam Jolman released The Sex Talk You Never Got. And he really helped people to see that pornography and masturbation, acting out, it's not about arousal so much of the time. He said, when men say they need sex, I believe most often they actually need emotional regulation. They need comfort, they need connection to be soothed, but they've never been taught about this. And we have a culture that permits men to demand sex, which allows them to use sex this way, but you don't have a sex problem. You have an emotional regulation problem that leads to a sex problem if misunderstood. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. How did we get here in the church? And how do we get out of here? How do pastors listening to this who are like, oh crap, I've I've given that kind of advice. What would you say to them?

Sam: 38:15

Well, that's why I wrote the book, right? The The Healing Church, what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it, is not written to the struggler. It's written to the ministry leader. I really wanted to help pastors and ministry leaders understand the issue well. Misunderstandings that are very common. And then how they can take meaningful steps to create safe places with safe processes in their communities. How can they begin doing this well? And it wasn't so much, hey, Sam's got all the answers. I visited churches that were doing this work well. And how are they doing it? What worked for them? And how could your church begin to mimic some of the things they do? What works in one church isn't necessarily going to fit perfectly in your church. So there's multiple examples of how these churches have addressed the issue, but the common theme is safe place, safe process.

Greg: 39:10

So people who have been harmed by their spiritual caregivers, people who tried to ask for help and went to their pastor and got the maybe you need to be more sexually available, maybe you know you should spice it up a little bit, who are very understandably wounded by that, re-traumatized by that. It's a form of spiritual abuse, and they are sitting in a place of, well, I learned my lesson, I'll never do that again. That's not the solution either. And so, so when the people in the place with the process who were supposed to be safe weren't, how do people who have been harmed by that find motivation to give it another try? Wow.

Sam: 39:58

Yeah, that's hard, isn't it? How hard is it to, man? I have gone to my ministry leaders and I I was hurt more. I think we have to understand that one, there are really good resources available through an organization called APSATS: A P-S-A-T-S. Find them. Uh Dr. Barbara Stephens has she was a recent guest on the show. Fantastic. Link to some of her resources there. Again, intimate deception from Dr. Sherry Keffer will really help you understand what should have been offered that wasn't. And that there are many ministry leaders who have begun looking at this very, very well outside their often outside their denominations, etc. Because in my 19 years at Covenant Eyes, visiting, attending conferences for denominations and ministry leaders over and over again, the opportunities for training for that they've received is just so minimal. And only recently have seminaries begun to address this issue as well. So there's some there's some real change and movement. We've created a resource at Covenant Eyes that's a free resource for pastors and ministry leaders called Five Stones. I will provide a link for you for that. It's a free program, it really creates some things. So right on tap, you have resources that can help people in your church. It includes training for ministry leaders, but programs, a 21-day program for men called Strive. It's a video program with lessons and that walk a guy through his first 21 days of understanding the issue and beginning taking steps toward freedom. We have another one called Rise for Women who are struggling. We have resources for couples, etc. So in that five stones program, you as a ministry leader can receive this free and we'll send you a kit that allows you to be prepared when someone walks into your office and says, I'm struggling, pastor, and I don't know where to go. And so you've got some tools right at your fingertips. The amount of work and and time commitments that pastors are under, the strain that they're under, the diverse things that they need to address, man, it is overwhelming for them. Yeah. And so we want to create resources that can equip and help them. That's why we created the healing church, but churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it, as well as the resources from Five Stones.

Greg: 42:38

Yeah. I mean, I if I could just kind of step in boldly and speak to those people who might be listening who have undergone this kind of harm, I wouldn't want any part of our conversation to make it sound like that was okay, what happened.

Sam: 42:52

No.

Greg: 42:52

If you asked for help and you didn't get it, and not only did you not get help, but you got more wounding. But I would invite you to consider what if that wasn't Jesus or his heart? Because a lot of times the people who represent Jesus in our lives, we forget that they are flawed people and that they don't represent him the way that is true of his character. And so I would just invite you to think, what would it be like to not throw the baby out with the bathwater, to not say that because you got bad and abusive and harmful advice from someone who speaks for the Lord, to say that that was from the Lord and to abandon the whole thing. Now, maybe the time will come if you express that harm and it's not listened to and it falls on deaf ears, you may feel like, I need to find a safer place and a safer person because this process has not been safe. And and I I don't ever tell people right off the bat, go go to a different church, because it could be that there's a real opportunity for your leaders to learn and grow and repent of the harm. But if you've really hung in there and you found that it's not changing and it's not improving, then there's always that option of not abandoning faith, but going to a place that's going to be safer.

Sam: 44:06

I cannot tell you the number of people that have said, you know, I got a copy of the healing church and gave it to my pastor. And then that pastor's saying, I didn't know this.

Greg: 44:14

Yeah.

Sam: 44:15

And so thank you for bringing us back full circle there because it is important not to give up. It's important to recognize that people don't know what they don't know. Good intentions. Thought they were doing the right thing, but that wasn't quite the right answer. I have you ever not had the right answer to something and that you spat out anyway. So many times. Right? That's gotten me so many, so much trouble over the years. Yeah, but we also need to be humble enough to say the way I reacted or the thing that I said or what I believed wasn't quite right.

Greg: 44:53

I was wrong.

Sam: 44:54

Not quite right. I was wrong. Let's step into that again. That is the rupture and repair. That's it. We we have not only rupture and repair in our own lives, we have rupture and repair in our relationships, we have rupture and repair in in ministry.

Greg: 45:12

And talk about something that will make it a healing church is having leaders who are willing to do that. And and the difficulty in that is the same reason it's difficult for parents to do it with their kids, because we're afraid that we're going to lose their respect. We're afraid they're going to think less of us. But isn't it almost always the opposite that happens?

Sam: 45:32

It's always the opposite that happens. In fact, often when I've been speaking to parents about talking to children of their kids about pornography, is if you're having conversations or your teen and you don't know the answer, or your child and you don't know the answer, just say, you know, I don't know the answer to that, but let me find out. And it it's the opposite of being like, well, mom and dad don't have all the answers.

Greg: 45:55

Well, saying I don't. People don't mind you saying, I don't know, as long as you're honest. And then in many cases, as long as you're willing to find out. And whether you're a parent or up, you know, in in your workplace or in the church. I think that people's appreciation and being drawn to honest, authentic leaders is something that we often I think we undervalue and we we we sell it short, but it's it's huge. Because don't we all know that we've got our stuff? You know, we've got our stuff. Well, I really hope that leaders who are listening will hear the love and the kindness and the appreciation for how hard we know the work that they do is. And just an acknowledgement that sometimes all of us take something that's really difficult and we make it even more difficult by trying to do it all on our own, by being unaware of the resources that are out there. And so I just really appreciate the fact that you guys and you particularly, Sam, understood with clarity a lot of the things that were lacking in the informedness of those who are leaders in ministry. And you did something about it. And I just would encourage as strongly as I can, people who are in ministry leadership, to get a copy of the Healing Church and just read it with an open heart and open mind and to say, wow, I'm really encouraged because we're doing that part really well. Or, hey, I'm challenged because we're not doing that part really well. And just let it change and hone the direction of how we lead people and how we serve them that way.

Sam: 47:33

Thank you. You know, I I really did write the book with empathy for ministry leaders. I had been asked to speak at a ministry conference. And at that ministry conference, you know, the uh guys came, the leaders came out of the session and goes, I never thought about pornography and these issues in this way. And and I thought, you know, I just scratched the surface. That's all I can do in 40, 40 minutes. My goodness. So I really wanted to create. That's when I got on a plane and on the flight home, sketched out the book and wrote it. Wanted to really write something that had empathy for the ministry leader that helped them understand the issue well and how they could address it well in the church.

Greg: 48:17

And I think appropriately challenges them to not ignore it any longer.

Sam: 48:21

Pornography is undermining every ministry of the local church, from children's ministries to teen ministries to adult ministries to marriage ministries to senior citizen ministries.

Greg: 48:32

Yeah.

Sam: 48:33

The average age for first exposure is somewhere between the ages of eight and ten. Well, our children are being exposed to this. How are we addressing that in the church? Our teens are among the most prolific users of pornography. That's your teens and your church too. So we have to address this because as you're teaching, as you're instructing, as you're putting together couples' weekends and teen camps, recognize that pornography is literally undermining every work that you're trying to get done. And it's not enough to just say from the pulpit pornography's wrong.

Greg: 49:03

Right.

Sam: 49:03

They already know pornography is wrong. They just don't know how to stop.

Greg: 49:05

And what these resources and messages help leaders do, one, know that this can be turned around in people's lives. It can be turned around. Already have found themselves lost in a wilderness. They can be led out of it and to find freedom. And two, this can impact the generation of kids coming up to where for many of them it never becomes a stronghold in the first place. That's right. Oh my gosh. How would that be to have people in the age in which we live who grow into adulthood and don't ever get mired in pornography or sexual brokenness?

Sam: 49:46

And it's possible the audacity to believe that we can begin changing culture in our local community.

Greg: 49:52

May it be so. Sam, thank you for carving out an hour to be with me today. It's it's been a real blessing to talk to you.

Sam: 49:59

Greg, thank you so much for having me. Look forward to having another conversation like this.

Greg: 50:03

Yeah, let's do it. I'm gonna make sure that people have all of the links to take advantage of the many great resources from Covenant Eyes, including your book. Thanks for joining us today. God bless you. Thank you so much. Bye.