50 | Adam Young: Sadness Does Not Sink Us

What if sadness isn’t the problem—what if the real drain is the energy we spend trying to avoid it? To celebrate our 50th episode, Greg & Stacey talk with therapist and author ADAM YOUNG (host of The Place We Find Ourselves podcast) for a frank, tender, and deeply practical conversation about story work, lament, and the courage to feel. Adam unpacks why facing your past can enlarge your heart, expand your capacity for joy and grief, and finally quiet the buzzing smallness that comes from numbing out.

Adam shares his own journey into therapy and the frameworks that helped his symptoms make sense. We explore the Psalms as a living handbook for honest prayer, including the lines that complain to God about God. Adam even shares a simple way to write your own psalm. No spiritual shortcuts—just truth told in the presence of love and trust.

We also dive into idolatry as a compassionate diagnosis; how story work reveals the holy desires beneath compulsions & addictions: to be seen, soothes, safe, and secure. When those desires are honored, we gain the expulsive power of a new affection and reconnect to real freedom. 

We're so grateful to Adam for making our 50th episode so special. We hope you'll subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help others find the show.

#adamyoung #adamyoungcounseling #theplacewefindourselves #makesenseofyourstory #thebigsix #storywork #therapy #healing #addiction #trauma #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

AdamYoungCounseling.com (many resources available here!)

Transcript

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Welcome And 50th Episode Reflections

Adam Young 0:00

I want to invite people to ponder that it might be less energy depleting to look at the past than not look at the past. So many of us are spending so much energy and we're exhausted, and we're exhausted because we're running from our story.

Announcer 0:20

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg Oliver 0:36

Does it just seem like yesterday that we were at episode number one?

Stacey Oliver 0:41

Yes.

Greg Oliver 0:41

And here we are. This is episode 50. Maybe, maybe two days ago.

Stacey Oliver 0:45

We were very nervous.

Greg Oliver 0:46

Two days ago. Fair enough.

Stacey Oliver 0:47

I don't think you were. Maybe were you? I speak for you, but were you nervous that that first episode?

Bobby West 0:53

Absolutely.

Stacey Oliver 0:54

Yeah, I was too.

Greg Oliver 0:55

I was just nervous that y'all were gonna say something stupid.

Stacey Oliver 0:57

Oh, come on.

Bobby West 0:59

I was nervous about how I was gonna sound.

Stacey Oliver 1:01

Yeah.

Bobby West 1:02

I thought I was gonna sound stupid. Yes. Okay. I didn't think I was gonna say anything stupid, but I thought I was gonna say something.

Greg Oliver 1:05

By show of hands, who listened and thinks that they sound better on the podcast than they sound in real life?

Stacey Oliver 1:10

Only when I have a cold.

Greg Oliver 1:12

Only when you have Okay, yeah. Well, I don't know what I sound like in real life, but worse.

Stacey Oliver 1:16

I had a cold the first episode we did. I was getting over a cold, and when you were editing it, I heard myself for the first time and I was like, oh, I kind of like the way I sound.

Greg Oliver 1:26

Well, will you sexy thing. So we're at number 50, and it's been crazy. Just, I mean, I know I've been excited about it the whole time. I think we've been excited about it the whole time, but it's fun to hear people in our community and then people even outside our community who know us talking about how they they've gotten excited about it too.

Stacey Oliver 1:48

I think recently somebody filled out a form and said they heard about us from a podcast. What, but I don't know that they said our podcast. That's my story. They heard it from our podcast.

Greg Oliver 2:00

We'll take that. Yeah, we'll take it that way. I mean, we've had at least two people who have come to our Roots Retreat men's recovery intensive who first heard about it on the podcast, which is pretty cool.

Bobby West 2:11

Uh yeah, I remember meeting a guy at our Roots Retreat. I'd never met him before, but he knew me because of the podcast and was telling me like how much it meant to him and how it I think I I think he even said it like changed his life, or it was a starting point for him to change his life. I was like, holy.

Greg Oliver 2:27

Something that was kind of uh surreal, and I don't know if they I don't know if the youngsters would say it's meta or sim or whatever. I don't know what any of those things mean. But what kind of voice was that? I could do my Hank Hill from King of the Hill. Sounds good. No, but but we just when we're recording this, the day before this episode comes out, we have just finished up a Roots Retreat, men's intensive, and it was crazy to me how many times in our group discussions people would say, Well, this reminded me of that time on that episode with so-and-so when you said blah, blah, blah. Oh, wow. Like that is weird. You know, yeah. It's a good weird though. Yeah. Because what it what we had said we wanted out of the show was that it was going to help more people find out about Awaken and the work that we do, that it was gonna help more people get an idea of how to pursue healthy connections with themselves and other people in God. And and it just really sounds like that's we're getting what we wanted.

Stacey Oliver 3:22

So, Greg Oliver, let me ask you what we ask all of our podcast guests. What do you want out of our conversation today?

Greg Oliver 3:28

Two things. One is I'd like for you to talk normally because you're weirding me out. No, I think the other thing is I just want us to have an opportunity just to feel and express our

Community Impact And Retreat Stories

Greg Oliver 3:40

gratitude for what the Lord's doing through this show. And I think what people are gonna hear in just a couple of minutes is gonna make them very grateful because we've got one of the guests I've been the most excited to have on since we started. He's kind of been on my want list since before day one, and that is Adam Young. Really, really excited that Adam agreed to be our guest. And hun, you and I talked to him about a month ago. Yeah. Like, man, just such a rich, rich conversation. I can remember when my sister Beth first told me about the place we find ourselves podcast. And I remember listening to the first episode and just thinking, whoa, like this is this is really good and this is really important. And it's a podcast that so many people in our community and in our circles have benefited so much from. Bobby, what do you hear people saying about the place we find ourselves?

Bobby West 4:30

That it's awesome. I mean, I was the same, but once I started listening to it, I was in a place in my life where I was dealing with a lot of anger towards God. And Adam Young he had he had several episodes about that, and it really helped me work through that.

Greg Oliver 4:51

I love that you said that because one of the things he very specifically talks about in the episode, in the interview, you're about to hear is this idea of what we see and how we relate to God in the Psalms. Adam had a time in his life after he'd finished graduate studies, before he went into being a therapist, where he had time on his hands. And so he actually went through the book of Psalms line by line and categorized what every single line and every single psalm was primarily talking about. And he found out that 4% of the book of Psalms is the writer complaining to God about God. Wow. That's that's significant enough to show that that honesty towards how we're feeling towards God is something that's biblical because we find it right there.

Bobby West 5:38

So really I should be talking to God more like I talk to my wife and my kids. Well, you could, I think is the point.

Stacey Oliver 5:47

He knows already.

Greg Oliver 5:48

Yeah, I got a lot of problems with you. And you're gonna hear about it. Holy festivus. Yeah. But you know, in all seriousness, one of the things that Adam says, and you'll hear him say it, is if we are not, if 4% of how we talk to God is not complaint, then we are not praying psalmically, is the word that he uses. And that gave me something to think about.

Stacey Oliver 6:10

He doesn't get in quote unquote get in trouble for talking to God like that.

Greg Oliver 6:14

Yeah. He has written a book called Make Sense of Your Story. Adam has a longtime connection with Dan Alender and the Allender Center. He is deeply trained in story work and uh has helped many, many people make sense of their stories. And we can't wait for you to hear him talk about the full range of emotions. This episode is called Sadness Does Not Sink Us. I'm just really, really excited that we have had over these 50 episodes such a great experience with so many wonderful people that we deeply admire agreeing to come and share some time with us in conversation. At this occasion of our 50th episode, let me just say thank you to all of our guests.

Introducing Guest Adam Young

Greg Oliver 6:55

Thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you, Bobby, Stacy, for just being a part of this incredible thing that God's been doing. If you are listening and you have not already followed or subscribed to the podcast, we'd really love for you to do that. We would love for you to help us by writing a positive review and sharing about the show on all of your social media accounts. We love it and we want as many people to hear it as possible. Well, all of this is some of the reflections that we've had as we have been doing this work of our own recovery and healing and becoming who we were made to be. And a lot of that work has been helped along greatly by people like Adam Young. So we can't wait for you to hear our conversation with him. We hope you'll enjoy this 50th episode of I was almost gonna say the place we're gonna be. I've done that before. I've done it before. This 50th episode of What We Really Want. It's called Sadness Does Not Sink Us. Our guest is someone that we greatly admire and are glad as a friend now. And his name is Adam Young, and the episode starts right now.

Vulnerability As The Path To Connection

Greg Oliver 7:58

Adam Young, it is so good to have you on What We Really Want. I'm smiling from ear to ear. Thanks for being our guest today.

Adam Young 8:04

Greg, Stacy, it's good to be with you. It's good to meet you.

Stacey Oliver 8:07

You too.

Greg Oliver 8:08

Thank you so much. Yeah. You're joining us from Colorado today? Fort Collins, Colorado. Nice. I want to ask you the question we always start with, which is, Adam, what do you really want out of our conversation?

Adam Young 8:20

I am open to exploring anything that is that fits the categories of vulnerable and meaningful, substantive. So I'm not really a superficial small talk guy, but I'm deeply interested in connecting with other people. And in my experience, vulnerability is is the way that we connect with one another. Without vulnerability, it's difficult to connect to another human being. So vulnerability, meaningful connection, that's what I want.

Greg Oliver 8:51

Amen. We're here for it. Thank goodness. Well, this isn't always the case, but I would guess that most, almost all, probably of our listeners know who you are. There probably aren't many people who listen to what we really want who haven't also listened first to the place we find ourselves podcast. I was thinking this morning, my sister Beth was the person who first told me about the place we find ourselves. And it it was back in 2018. And I think at that point you probably had about 15, maybe 20 episodes out. And I remember sitting down, particularly with the first two episodes, with a with a huge spiral-bound notebook and just I mean, filling up like four or five pages, the focus and the the conciseness and the clarity that that it was bringing. I I'm remembering episode two on the big six, it was just huge and put so many pieces together and has for thousands of people since then. And I know I'm talking a long time. I'm gonna get to you like you're talking a second. But but Adam, honestly, I the Bible says in Romans 13 that Christians ought to give respect to those you owe respect and honor to those you owe honor. And I really just wanted to take a minute before we get into what else we're gonna be talking about today and just give you some honor, Adam. The the way that you show and communicate compassion to people who have been harmed, and the way that you name harm, not glossing over it, calling it what it is, sometimes using terms like wickedness, evil, the way that you've allowed your story of harm and healing to become a place where other people are invited to do the same thing. And we I think we both just want to say thank you for the gift that you have given us and so many other people. And you have our deep respect and honor and gratitude.

unknown 10:39

Yeah.

Adam Young 10:40

Uh Greg, thank you. Stacey, thank you. It's so important for my heart to hear that and fills me with a lot of joy and meaning.

Stacey Oliver 10:50

Yeah.

Adam Young 10:51

I I I long to bear fruit. And what I'm hearing you say is that my words have borne fruit in your heart.

Stacey Oliver 10:57

Absolutely. I'm a missionary kid, so I grew up in West Africa, nine, age nine to eighteen, and and then we were in church ministry and have our story. So there's been a lot of harm, and it took me a long time to even know that that's what it was, but also to acknowledge it and and to know that what if I acknowledge that, it doesn't mean those people were, you know, intentionally harming me or knowingly harming me all the time. So it's had a big impact on healing. Because if we don't understand where we've come from, we stay stuck.

Adam Young 11:33

That's the truth.

Greg Oliver 11:34

So, like we said, Adam, a lot of our listeners, most probably if not all, know who you what you do now. And anybody who's listened to the place we find ourselves for a long time or read make sense of your story already know some of your personal story about how you came to be where you are today because you're very open about that. But would you be willing to just take a few minutes and share with our listeners so that they'll be sure to understand how you came to be where you are doing the work you do now and just why it's so important to you?

Adam Young 13:15

Well, I got my master's degree in social work in 1999. So a long time ago. But I did not practice. I

Adam’s Journey Into Therapy And Story Work

Adam Young 13:24

did not go in to practice as a therapist because when I graduated, I I was clear about two things. Number one, I had significant symptoms that I couldn't understand or figure out how to make go away. And number two is I I didn't know how to help people. And so I did other stuff for a long time. And then I began practicing therapy in 2013, largely because I was a pastor at the time, and the most important part of pastoring for me was engaging one-on-one with people's hearts stories, what they were going through. And so I was actually doing therapeutic work without being a therapist, just because that's how I engage with people, is what I care about.

Stacey Oliver 14:13

Yeah.

Adam Young 14:14

The reason I love being a therapist now is because it you know, a lot of people subscribe to like Netflix and Hulu and all that stuff, and they watch shows, especially in the evening, and they're those are stories, and oftentimes they're stories of trauma. Well, I I just get to be in people's real life trauma narratives. I mean, there is nothing, I mean, Netflix has nothing on people's real stories, and I don't just mean their past, I mean their present, how they're navigating the complexities of the harm that they've experienced, the glory that they bear in their present life, in their marriages, in with with regard to their current vocations. So to me, you know, there's nothing, there's no profession that's more exciting and meaningful than therapy.

Greg Oliver 15:08

So when you got into therapy professionally in 2013, which was what, 14 years after you got your master's? Yeah, what about it was kind of what you felt like you were now prepared for? What about it in the early days kind of surprised you? What was it like starting out when you felt like maybe you were more ready than back in 99?

Adam Young 15:33

Well, the first thought that comes to mind is I began to engage my own story. I met a man named Dan Allender. I read a book called The Wounded Heart, which is about sexual abuse in your growing up years. I went out to spend a week with Dan at a program called Recovery Week. And I began to during that time, I began to engage my story. I learned that I actually have a story that my experiences as a boy growing up in my family of origin continue to affect me today. And so the symptoms that I was experiencing in my life, especially anxiety, relationship problems, problems with God, marriage problems, like all that stuff started making sense. And I began to have a framework for engaging it that was actually helpful. Yeah.

Greg Oliver 16:22

Well, I that's really important. That felt important, but it could have been easy to just breeze by. You began to engage with your story, but you had a framework in which to do it. Because without the framework, that's that's a terrifying thing to do. It can be. And and and one of the things that I told you ahead of time that I was hoping to talk about is why why it's worth it to do that. Yeah. You know, because there's so many objections. I mean, you list five objections in, I think it's what, chapter three of your book that people have. And you didn't specifically name this, but the thing I I mentioned in my email to you is I could see it being underneath all of them, which is just a terror of like, yes, what am I going to uncover and what's it going to do to me? And wouldn't it be better off if I just didn't know?

Adam Young 17:13

Yes, absolutely. That's really well named. It is scary to look inside our hearts and feel what our bodies feel. That is scary, especially for people that have a history of trauma. And so it's this sense of if I go there, I might be prostrate on the floor, unable to function, and I actually need to be a husband and a father and earn earn income. And I don't know that I can bear the big sorrows, fears, shame inside my heart. I don't know that I can contain it, and I don't know that I can function in the midst of it. So I think you naming the terror that people sometimes feel when they think about looking at the past very wise and very common.

Greg Oliver 18:07

Well, I don't know if this is connected at all, but uh I just wanted to share that something that I've noticed since I got your book and I was looking through it. The cool thing about being a longtime subscriber to your podcast is that there wasn't, and this is meant to be a compliment, there wasn't a lot in the book that I hadn't heard you say before. Yeah. You know, it's kind of a culmination and taking some of these things and putting them in a volume. But you know what I what I noticed is as I look at the table of contents and the chapter titles, most of them start with two words, what if?

Adam Young 18:42

Yeah.

Greg Oliver 18:43

And to me, and I I'd love to hear you talk about this. To me, that is relevant to what you've just been saying and with the terror, because if I'm forced or coerced to do this kind of work, I'm gonna resist automatically, right? Yeah, but what if there those are invitational words, and I'm guessing that that was intentional.

Adam Young 19:06

Absolutely, absolutely. I you know, I I want to invite people to ponder that it might be less energy depleting

Why Looking At The Past Is Worth It

Adam Young 19:18

to look at the past than not look at the past. So Barbara Brown Taylor is a theologian and a writer, and she has a great sentence in one of her books where she says that sadness does not sink a person. It is the energy you spend trying to avoid sadness that sinks a person. And I have found that to be very true, not just in my life, but in the lives of the people I work with. So many of us are spending so much energy and we're exhausted, and we're exhausted because we're running from our story. We don't want to look at the past, but the past is in our bodies, yeah, it's in our cells and our tissues, it's there. And if you don't look at it, it it's going to come out sideways.

Greg Oliver 20:11

Yes. And also, I can push the ball down the field for a while before that happens. And I can keep avoiding because if I'm engaging with the parts of my story that involved pain, the very engagement is going to involve more pain.

Adam Young 20:29

That's right.

Greg Oliver 20:30

And who wants that?

Adam Young 20:30

That's right, Greg. And who wants that?

Stacey Oliver 20:33

Well, in your addiction, you didn't, you could have asked for help, but you didn't know really where to go to even think about engaging your story.

Greg Oliver 20:41

I didn't even get that far. I didn't get that far. Because when I was in church ministry and struggling with a sexual addiction, to get help meant that the catastrophic consequence that I feared was going to happen. And that blocked me from being willing or able to even think about asking for help.

Stacey Oliver 20:57

And I didn't have that, but like for me, it was like the insecurity and the my value is in, I thought, you know, being a worship pastor's wife and being very helpful and kind and you know, ask Stacy, she'll do it. She'll she'll she'll be on the time. She's dependable. And I'm like, oh my gosh. But I was so lonely and I was not really fulfilled. And I didn't know really what to do either, other than these are idols and you need to turn from them. But like, what does that even mean? You know, and so when this everything blew up with him, well, I had that to deal with, but then that's when I really got to be able, you know, to look at my own past and and then it's been it's been quite the journey, I'll say that. But it's good. With all of this pain and trauma, like I am more settled and at peace, and our marriage is in a place that oh gosh, I would never go back. Um it's been, yeah, yeah.

Greg Oliver 22:00

And you cuss a lot too.

Stacey Oliver 22:01

And I cuss a lot now. I had two in my arsenal before, and now I feel like I know all of them.

Greg Oliver 22:10

Yeah, now you have more, but it's it's endearing. It's it's sweet.

Stacey Oliver 22:14

It's precious.

Greg Oliver 22:15

So, Adam, getting back to what we've been talking about with the cost and the benefit of engaging with our story, because there's both. There's a lot of benefit that anybody who has followed you has heard you talk about, but there's also great cost. I mean, one of the things just personally I've noticed since because I was in my late 30s when I started doing real authentic, truthful, vulnerable work. And now after discovering and naming many ways throughout my life in which I experienced harm, I realized like I carry that with me, that awareness with me all the time. And that's part of the cost. I feel a little measure of sadness every single day.

Adam Young 22:59

Yes. Yes.

Greg Oliver 23:02

And that that is something that well, I I was 38 when when things started to change for me. I was probably well into my 40s before I came to a point where I could see that carrying sadness every day might not be a bad thing. And I've talked with many other people who have noticed the same thing. And so I may be asking you to repeat, but I think I'm asking you to go deeper into something that we've been talking about the last few minutes is for that objection of like, why is it worth it? Why is it worth it?

Adam Young 23:34

Well, for Christian folks, the psalmist puts it like this the Lord has enlarged me in my distress. The way

Sadness Versus The Cost Of Avoidance

Adam Young 23:44

Paul will say that is that we're called to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. Both texts are getting at the same idea. God is very interested in enlarging our hearts so that we are just as apt to be laughing one minute as we are to be weeping the next. That's what it means to grow in the image and likeness of Christ. It means to have a fuller heart with more capacity for sorrow and more capacity for joy. The word that I'm getting at is it means to come alive. So in you know, in John 10, 10, when Jesus says, I have come for you to have abundant life, he's talking about vitality, the the the aliveness of the human heart. And when we are in addictions, compulsions, when we're running from our story, our hearts are smaller. Like we are a we are a fraction of the size that we could be.

Stacey Oliver 24:44

Yep. I think about the I it was for freedom that I set you free. That that like came alive to me in this recovery process because I was like, it's I'm not just free. I'm free to be free and like experience it. And I and I couldn't until so much was unpacked.

Greg Oliver 25:01

Yes. Yeah, I've I noticed something when you talked about the smallness a minute ago. And I'm just thinking back to when when I would feel like in the darkest, and thankfully now I'm having to think back a long way.

Stacey Oliver 25:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Oliver 25:15

Because life has been different. But just how the way I've described is when I would be feeling the most hopeless in my addiction because I had no one that I was talking to, and Stacy didn't know any of it. The the physical sensation that I felt, I call it scooped out. I felt small and I felt hollowed out and like almost like my whole being was gonna cave in. Yep. And now, just yesterday, there were some situations going on that are really difficult. And I it's not good, it's not fun. I don't like how it feels, but it feels very, very different because it doesn't feel like that smallness or that I'm, you know, shrinking down or scooped out. There really is a different sense of being able to still be present, even when there's an unpleasant emotion going on.

Adam Young 26:07

Yes. And and what you're putting words to, if I'm hearing you right, is that you have more relational connection now, and you are able to reach out when you are in need. And when you were 35, you were utterly alone with whatever was going on inside of you.

Greg Oliver 26:27

Yes, yes. I'm thinking, hun, about two years ago, there was just some stuff that we were working through. Nothing was explosive. I didn't relapse. There was nothing like quote unquote bad happening, but just there are some issues of stuckness in our marriage. Yeah. And and there was a catalytic situation that kind of brought it to the surface, and we weren't seeing eye to eye on it.

Stacey Oliver 26:50

Yeah.

Greg Oliver 26:51

And it was, it it brought in the work that we subsequently did, it really enlightened me to the fact that I was responding to you very avoidantly. And I've never seen myself as avoidant, but kind of like you talked about how in in your your book talking about how with Caroline you were different than you were with other females. It was kind of like that.

Stacey Oliver 27:10

Yeah.

Greg Oliver 27:11

And you were kind of insecure. Very anxious.

Stacey Oliver 27:14

Yeah, anxious.

Greg Oliver 27:15

And in the midst of all that, before we went to an intensive and got some help, I called a really good friend who is also a therapist and just was kind of just bitching about it, honestly. You know, and and one of the things he got to is how old does that feel?

Adam Young 27:34

Yes.

Greg Oliver 27:35

And I had a game changer, instantly started crying.

unknown 27:38

Yeah.

Greg Oliver 27:39

Because what I was talking to him about, the situation, I said it feels six years old, and it feels like when do I get to have my emotions get some attention paid to them? Yes. And it was, it was just it it's funny because it's stuff that you know and you can point out in other people, but the self-realization took a little bit longer.

Adam Young 28:04

Absolutely.

Greg Oliver 28:04

But yeah, just the gift of being able to stay there and and and name it and and also to know that there wasn't the threat to the relationship to take some time to do that was really a gift.

Adam Young 28:15

Yeah. And whenever we have stuck places, like you re you guys ran into a stuck place. I mean, nine times out of ten, it is because younger parts of our hearts are being activated or triggered is the famous word right now. And we aren't aware of it. And as soon as your friend helped you name that a part of you was feeling like you felt when you were six, yeah, you got really clear about what was going on for you and why you were why this was tormenting for you, this stuckness with Stacey. That's right.

Greg Oliver 28:54

Yeah, because I was in that moment, I was kind of showing up with a six-year-old's capacity.

Adam Young 28:59

Of course. Of course you were.

Stacey Oliver 29:01

And I was matching it.

unknown 29:03

Right.

Stacey Oliver 29:04

Two six-year-olds probably going at it.

Greg Oliver 29:06

Two six-year-olds in their 50s showing up and trying to make something productive happen.

Stacey Oliver 29:11

But what a different, what a different place we were in with all the work we had done to that point to even be able to ask for help and then, you know, do the intensive that we did. And it was scary and hard, but gosh, it was so good. But I don't think I because I wonder, I know what I was struggling with was why am I still so anxious with him? Like what I've done all this work. I don't understand. I know he's not going anywhere. But when he packs a suitcase, I'm still like coming undressed. And then when we did our intensive and realized some of those parts still needed attention, you know, and there was stuff we didn't know. We just weren't having words for. But yeah, it was uh it was amazing to me that we were in the good place that we were in. But it we both said it was life-changing, like and that was just two years ago, and it was for our marriage, and it we're just in such a we still go sideways and I still cuss, but it we can we know what's going on, you know.

Greg Oliver 30:11

So I have a question about some of the stuff we've been talking about the last several minutes with engaging with the sadness and realizing that like the quote that you that you cited, not the sadness, but the energy we spend to avoid the sadness that sinks a person. I would imagine, and you can tell me if this is accurate or not, that in your practice and in your experience working with a lot of different people, that there have been some who identify as Christians and others who don't. Have you found that it trends in either direction that that a person's faith experience makes it easier or harder to show up for this kind of work? Because I think I know what you would say, but I want to hear you say it.

Adam Young 30:53

Well, in my experience, folks that have broadly speaking, and kind of an evangelical Christian background have so many barriers to feeling their feelings. Yes. Because it has not been called. Welcomed in their communities growing up. Right. They haven't, it hasn't been modeled. There are no rituals for sorrow. There's no expressions. Anger is like this bad thing. You're not supposed to get angry, especially if you're a Christian woman. Like anger is just anathema. And this stuff is absolute hogwash. I mean, we are emotional beings, and every single interaction, every single emotional expression is a mixture of dignity and depravity. And a lot of people don't understand that there's great dignity in these emotional reactions that they've been taught need to be kind of put away and not at least not expressed in public.

Greg Oliver 31:57

Dignity and godliness.

Adam Young 32:00

And godliness.

Greg Oliver 32:01

Yeah. So beauty. Why would faith leaders discourage that?

Adam Young 32:08

Well, because it makes their jobs really hard.

Faith Leaders and the Struggle with Deep Feelings

Adam Young 32:12

And frankly, they haven't typically done their own emotional work. Yeah. So they're just deeply uncomfortable with a with a congregant, a parishioner who's in front of them and is sobbing or is raging. They haven't done their own work with their own sorrow and anger. And so when they're in the presence of big sorrow or big anger, they don't know what to do and they get dysregulated and they result to measures of control.

Greg Oliver 32:43

Yeah. Yeah. Cause it and it's still kind of a capacity thing that's showing up in those moments. If they haven't engaged with that and done their own work, then their capacity to be in the presence of that intensity is very, very low. That's right. Well, I think about the what you called hogwash that to be spiritual, it has to be tilted just to the side of positivity. You talk about lament on your podcast. You had an episode where you talked about and then offered a resource of how to write your own psalm. Yeah. I'd love for you to talk about that for people who may not have heard about that yet. Because if we're stuck in that kind of evangelical space where we've never heard it encouraged and maybe have heard it actively discouraged, that we would see in that place of sorrow and lament and even complaining. How do the Psalms show us that that's such a biblical thing to do?

Adam Young 33:39

Oh my gosh. So when you have when you're unemployed, like I was in 2013, and you have a lot of time on your hands and you're very interested in the Bible, you might undertake a project which is to read the entire book of Psalms and categorize every not psalm, every line of the text.

Greg Oliver 34:05

You heard that somebody did that one time, right?

Adam Young 34:08

You will you will find out that the majority of the lines of the book of Psalms are about enemies. They are either verses that are praising God for harming one's enemies or asking God to do justice to one's enemies. In other words, they are focused on anger and the sense of injustice. And that is a little bit different than what you often hear, which you'll hear some people say most of the psalms are psalms of lament. And that's that's it's it's not exactly it's not exactly true. It's really speech about enemies. Now, lament is an expression of sorrow or grief, and there's lots of that in the book of Psalms. But what about your anger? Where do you go with your anger if you are a Christian? And what the Bible, in my opinion, is exhorting us to is that you are to go to God with your anger, which means to speak it candidly and without editing your words.

Greg Oliver 35:15

That feels really important because we started out talking about how resistant people are to engaging with things that are going to spring up sadness. But I think within the church, I'm gonna make a blanket statement, but I think it's true. We tend to be a lot more comfortable with sadness than we are with anger. So, like maybe we're willing to crack, you know, to pop the hood on sadness, but don't look underneath that to, you know, what and maybe it's the other way around. Maybe underneath our anger is something deep like sadness. But but anger is really hard to sit with. Sadness is hard to sit with too, but maybe a little easier.

Adam Young 35:55

Well, it depends on your story, but for lots of Christian folks, they are very disconnected from their anger. In other words, it's not that they aren't angry, it's that they've shoved it into a corner of the basement of their heart and they don't go there. And whenever we do that, it leaks out. It comes out sideways. So the the biblical invitation, especially in the book of Psalms, Book of Lamentations, uh, the book of Job, is to take our anger, including our anger at God, and like speak it, express it to God.

Greg Oliver 36:34

I'm getting a picture in my head of almost like a scale or a range of things that are seen as acceptable, more or less acceptable within Christianity. Yeah. You know, sadness may be the most acceptable of what we've been talking about. Anger a little bit less. Anger itself is probably the best kind of anger. Anger at other people, a little less acceptable. Anger at God, absolutely not. Like you don't get to be angry with God. Yeah. And thinking about like I'm I'm thinking of just a hypothetical someone who's got a child who's dying of leukemia. And we'll go sit with those people and we will sit with them while they're crying. And we can do that, but when they start like lashing out in anger at God for letting this happen, like our skin starts to crawl and we want to get out of there.

Adam Young 37:25

Yeah. And what's you're you're naming it really well. The dilemma is that is so massively unbiblical that that I don't even have any like if you read your old testament, if you actually read it, if you read the book of Jeremiah, if you read the book of Job, you will see that there are people who are taking God to the mat in a wrestling match of accusation. Four percent of the verses in the book of Psalms are accusations against God. And the Psalms is a big book. Yeah, so four percent is not a small number. So here's here's here's a great way to put it. If when you pray, four out of one hundred sentences are not you accusing God of something, you're not praying psalmically.

Greg Oliver 38:19

Yeah. Yeah.

Stacey Oliver 38:21

So if you are, sorry. No, please. If you I haven't done this, if you asked somebody why would you be opposed to this or why do you think this isn't biblical, when when you're looking right at all of these verses, like what would they say?

Adam Young 38:35

Well, they would say that I mean, I I've heard everything from you know, that's the old testament, not the new, which fine. You go look at the new testament. There's no one who judges and accuses people more than the apostle Paul. So it's a bankrupt argument. But what I think, I think for most people, it's not an intellectual thing, Stacey. It's they are afraid of the intensity of their feelings, and they're afraid that no one in their community would welcome them if they were to verbalize that kind of stuff at a community group meeting. That's true. Or if they were to pray it in a small group, that that people would be like, you're not supposed to say that stuff. In other words, there are relational consequences. And that's why most people, if they do this at all, they do it alone. And that's tragic. Tragic.

Stacey Oliver 39:30

Yeah. I did express some anger at some things early on in our process toward some others that were in author, you know, spiritual authority, and it did not go well.

Adam Young 39:41

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that is so sad because the church, above all, needs to be a place where we can be honest and authentic with the big feelings inside of us. And the Bible has lots and lots of texts that do that. And yet Christians tend to be very reluctant to do it.

Greg Oliver 40:05

And I think, too, to back to the resource that you offered on how to write your own psalm, some of the things that you said about that I think can really help people feel okay and safe to do the complaining part. Because you talk, and I'd love to hear you for people who maybe don't know specifically what I'm talking about, kind of the order, the trajectory of doing that work, because it sort of begins and ends with the part that more Christians are comfortable with. But in the stuff in the middle is the uncomfortable part.

Adam Young 40:37

Yeah, I mean, what all I'm inviting people to do when I say write your own psalm is to look at the book of Psalms and kind of make it your own. So, for example, if you were to look at Psalm 13 and make Psalm 13 your own, yes, it starts out with an acknowledgement that you're approaching God. Oh Lord. Like that's an acknowledgement that you are approaching your creator and your God. And shortly thereafter, it expresses lament/slash accusation with the words, how long, O Lord? Like, how much longer am I going to have to endure my son's leukemia? And if he's died, how much longer am I going to have to like feel the agony of someone who I gave birth to is not on the planet and I still am? So it's accusation, it's lament. How long, Lord? And then if you keep reading Psalm 13, the the the tone changes to, but I trust in your in your in your unfailing love. Here's the dilemma. Most of us think that that was written in five minutes. But anyone who's written a song or a poem knows that it it often is.

Greg Oliver 42:00

Multiple sittings, yeah.

Adam Young 42:01

Multiple sittings in years. So why not linger with the how long and not have a tidy bow on the end? You'll get to the trust in his unfailing love when God meets you in your lament or your rage. But until God meets you there, it's just words that you're speaking that are divorced from what you're really feeling.

Greg Oliver 42:24

Adam, do you think that if the trust that the psalmist talks about that starts in the fifth verse of Psalm 13, but I trust,

Praying Anger: Learning From The Psalms

Greg Oliver 42:33

if that is present, even if it's latent or feels latent, when he's saying, Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? Must I take counsel in my soul? Must I have sorrow in my heart all the day? I think that we would maybe falsely assume that you can't have trust in a God that you're saying those things to. But it seems to me that it's the exact opposite.

Adam Young 42:58

It's the exact opposite. It takes more faith and trust in God to express your candid, honest, authentic feelings to that God than it does to withhold them in the name of I shouldn't talk this way to the Holy One.

Greg Oliver 43:13

Yeah.

Adam Young 43:15

So Christians need to learn from the Jews how to do lament and how to do candid prayer. Could you say more about that? Well, the Old Testament is the Hebrew scriptures, and on the whole, the Jewish people are far more comfortable with expressing doubt, anger, accusation, protestations of innocence. They're far more comfortable with wrestling with the Holy One than especially evangelical types. Catholics a little bit more so. But the evangelical, you know, that's what I grew up in. So that's the tradition I know. You just you're supposed to rejoice in the Lord always. Don't let the sun go down on your anger. In other words, there are these verses in the New Testament that are used to silence our big feelings.

Greg Oliver 44:11

Well, and the Bible does say those things, but those aren't the only things that the Bible says.

Stacey Oliver 44:17

But that you can't be doing this other at the same time.

Greg Oliver 44:19

Yeah, it's like the complexity is what we struggle with so much.

Stacey Oliver 44:26

I know in the early days of our recovery when I was so angry, I did much better job. Honestly, I was this is the only place I could go was Psalms. I didn't want to have anything to do with the rest of the Bible because I identified here, you know, and I was like so mad. Yeah. But I did, I'm like, I I trust in my head and I know what I was taught growing up as far as I have a foundation. I know you're there, but I but I don't actually right now. So I believe help my unbelief kind of thing. But yeah, I need I I think I would it would be good for me to get back to that because I don't do that as much anymore.

Greg Oliver 45:03

Well, I likewise, I mean, I spent a lot of time in my early recovery in the 30s, in the Psalm like 30 through 39, because those are just some of the the ones that were, I guess the way I would phrase it is meeting me where I was at that time. Not that all scripture isn't inspired by God, not that all scripture isn't good for all the things that Paul said it's good for, but that right now, this is the scripture that's gonna make me feel most connected to God because it's about hurt and it's about suffering and confusion. I want to ask you about a word that you use in the book. Something that I've enjoyed about our conversation is that we're for people who are followers of Jesus, who believe that the Bible is the word of God, but have experienced it taught, maybe not a incorrect but an incomplete way, or hearing some things maybe differently. One of the things that I noticed in the book is your use of the word idolatry. And early in chapter two, you quote from Isaiah 61, and you say that idolatry grows in the soil of your pain is coming out of that scripture. You also say we become captive to those things that promise to protect our hearts from being wounded in the same way again. And you you had just told a story about a man who, as a young boy, was overweight, was ridiculed, and then he kind of became addicted to exercise and developed an eating disorder. And so, you know, we we develop these strategies so that we never hurt that same way again. And the word you use to describe them was idolatry. And at first blush, I would think that what people have been told about idolatry in the past might tend to invite them to drift towards shame, but what you say about it is much kinder than that. And and I'd love to hear you just talk a little bit about just what is this type of idolatry that you're referring to?

Adam Young 47:03

Idolatry is simply looking to something other than God for safety, protection, rescue, salvation, shalom, goodness.

Greg Oliver 47:15

Yeah.

Adam Young 47:16

And anytime as a boy or a girl, your heart is harmed, and all of us experienced harm as boys or girls, you naturally will begin to make kind of agreements and vows that protect you in the future. So, in the example I gave in the book of this man who was, you know, when he was a fifth grader and they did those PE tests where you had to do a pull-up and he was overweight and he couldn't do one.

Stacey Oliver 47:47

Yeah.

Adam Young 47:47

And he was mocked and he was humiliated. And something in that fifth grader's heart said to himself, never again. Of course it did. And he went, of course it did. And he went home and he became obsessive about exercise and anorexic and and deeply committed to controlling his body's weight. So that is absolutely idolatry. Here's the dilemma. Most people hear that word and they think like they hear it as an accusation. What I want people to understand is your idolatry grows in the soil of your pain. That's what that's what Isaiah 61 is saying. The the suffering servant came to heal the brokenhearted. There's your pain, the broken heart, to release the captives. There's the idolatry. We become captive to things. And whether it's financial security or status in the community, or you know, a perfectly shaped body, or you know, you you're the you're the one with all the friends, and everyone looks to you for advice, or you're in some particular inner circle. Look, whatever you need for your life to be well, that is always in story. There's a reason that your idolatry, Stacey, differs from mine. And it's and you will understand that reason only by looking at your story and my story. And so all of us need to understand our growing up years to understand why we are captive bound to the things that we are.

Stacey Oliver 49:32

That's so good.

Greg Oliver 49:33

If that idolatry is seeking safety or care or protection from something other than God, like you said, and we

Trust and Accusation Can Coexist

Greg Oliver 49:42

go back to our stories, is there always or usually some element of when we go to that story, God, where were you?

Adam Young 49:51

I don't know about always, but certainly often, I mean, certainly often. I mean, this is what's so agonizing for many Christian folks, is they don't want to wrestle with that question. God, where were you when I was sexually abused?

Stacey Oliver 50:08

Yeah.

Adam Young 50:09

How could you let that happen, God? Yes. Or if it's not sexual abuse, where were you when my father was struggling with alcoholism during that horrible season of my life from the ages of 10 to 15? Where were you when my mother was being contemptuously yelled at by my alcoholic father for four years and I was powerless to do anything about it?

Greg Oliver 50:31

Or when I was one of 12 children and I was neglected, and so I found comfort in pornography or whatever.

Adam Young 50:38

Yes, exactly. We don't want to contend with the Holy One of Israel, we don't want to engage with God about where were you?

Greg Oliver 50:52

Yes.

Adam Young 50:58

Like yours did, both of you, when you were 38, 39, whenever it was, God, where are you right now? Yes. Where are you right now?

Stacey Oliver 51:11

Because what I was taught not that this would happen.

Adam Young 51:14

Yeah.

Stacey Oliver 51:14

Based on what I I obeyed most of the rules. I this isn't not what I'm supposed to get. What in the world?

Adam Young 51:21

That's right.

Greg Oliver 51:22

That's right. I feel like it's important to just point out that when we say, of course, you asked that question, or you know, that makes so much sense that you thought that you had to do it yourself, or that you didn't think or that you thought God had abandoned you. To say of course, that's not stipulating that what they feel is something that you believe was true, or that you even think that that's what they at their deepest place believe is true. You know, I think that I've talked to some Christian leaders who have been afraid to say no wonder or of course to something that involved sin or destructive behavior because of a fear that it's going to be received as license. But right. Wouldn't it be different if we just if we didn't assume that the people are doing these destructive things because they really want to?

Adam Young 52:16

Yeah, yeah. It it's the title of your podcast, What We Really Want. Yeah. And this is this is not new. Thomas Chalmers, Puritan writer, talks about the expulsive power of a new affection. And that's just old English language for whenever you are desiring something, your affection that is not serving you, there's always a deeper desire underneath there that is actually quite beautiful and lovely. And so many people don't understand that. They feel so much shame about some of their desires. Sexual in other words, I don't just mean sexual, I mean desires across the board. The desire to, you know, get the promotion, the desire to be, a desire to have a bigger house, whatever you're whatever you envy in other people, whatever wherever your desires are unmet, the the the desire to have my son healed of his mental illness, whatever it is.

Greg Oliver 53:16

Right.

Adam Young 53:16

And and you're told like you should trust in God.

Stacey Oliver 53:20

That was right in my mind, like that was right behind there. That's what I feel like that would have been said.

Adam Young 53:25

Yeah. And instead of going into the desire and finding out what you really want.

Stacey Oliver 53:34

Yes.

Adam Young 53:35

Yes. And and what's so beautiful for so many of the people I work with is that when you take them into their desires, they have this aha moment of like, oh my gosh, my desires are really quite holy. They are being expressed in an unholy way, but boy, oh boy, my desire for connection, relational intimacy, my desire for goodness in my marriage, my desire for to be welcomed and to belong in my community. Like these desires are so holy. And this is part of what it means to be created in the image of God.

Greg Oliver 54:19

A moment ago, Adam, you said we haven't grown up hearing people saying it that way or saying those things. And as we wrap up, I I want to just come back to gratitude because there are a lot more people speaking that way now than there used to be. There are a lot more people speaking that way now than when we began our journey along this path. And and some of those people that I think are speaking it most succinctly, widely, you know, ways that we just celebrate, we heard about them from you. Uh I mean, people, people who are saying those things are people like Jay Stringer, like Sam Jolman, like Kathy Lorzell. And we've we've gotten to know some of those people, had some of them on the show. So just in the spirit of not growing weary and well-doing, if if you weren't doing it, I we trust that God would have somebody else doing it, but we really are grateful that people who have come to know who Adam Young is and have have discovered the place we find ourselves, people who have been doing this work and shining a light on this neglected part of a Christian's experience so that it's it doesn't have to be neglected any longer. Just really, really thankful for that.

Stacey Oliver 55:35

And so all of those people that you've mentioned, and we just were at the AACC conference and speakers there, like it all, it's not all the same, but it it all is cohesive. That's the word. Yeah, complimentary, complimentary, consistent. Yeah, it just feels so good because I, you know, I talk to with what we do, I talk to women whose husbands have betrayed them. And it's just so cool when I'm talking to them, and then I'll hear things that you or others say, and I'm like, okay. Um, because I feel a little bit of, oh, can I say that? Like, did I just say that? Is that right? And then because I'm not a therapist, you know, and I'm not a biblical scholar, but I it's just very encouraging. So I really do appreciate all that you do and offer to the world. So I remember just real quick, the one where you talked, I don't know what episode or what it was called, but I remember this. If you don't have very many memories from your childhood, yeah, like go look at pictures. And boy, I pulled out the albums.

Greg Oliver 56:33

Every photo album you can find.

Stacey Oliver 56:35

Pulled out the albums because I don't. I remember some things, but I just, yeah. So that was that was just a small thing, but it was just one thing that I remember. It was really helpful.

Greg Oliver 56:45

I know that you know this, but but I just want to affirm that the the fruit of this work that you've decided to do and the direction that you've decided to do it in is connecting in so many healing ways with so many people, just even in our world and far beyond it.

unknown 57:01

Yeah.

Adam Young 57:02

Thank you for taking the time to say that. My heart needs to hear it. As I don't, I don't get feedback a lot about the impact

Wrapping Up: How to Get in Touch with Adam

Adam Young 57:11

of my labor. And and it's so good for my heart to hear and to see your faces as you're putting words to what you're saying.

Greg Oliver 57:21

I know what that feels like. And I heard somebody recently talking about the the 10 men with leprosy that Jesus healed, and only one of them came back to say thank you. It's such an easy thing to do, you know, because when you find the healing and you're celebrating, you're now you're you're living the life, right? It's like we don't want to fault people for living the life, but just again, honor where it's due. Yeah, just wanted to let you know about the impact, and I'm glad I'm glad that it is meaningful for you. We're gonna let people know in the show notes if they don't already follow the podcast, how they can do that, how they can get the book. Anything else you'd like people to know before we finish up?

Adam Young 57:59

Well, yeah, if you're interested in exploring your story, the reason I wrote the book, Make Sense of Your Story, is to give you a guide to doing that and kind of an invitation/slash provocation, like an I dare you in an inviting way. So put pick up a copy of Make Sense of Your Story. If you want to know more about conferences and things that I do, you can go to adamyoungcounseling.com.

Greg Oliver 58:23

Yes, and I've gone to several of those, and I can tell you from first hand experience it's it's worth it. It doesn't cost a lot of money, and it's worth every penny.

Adam Young 58:31

Thanks very much for saying that, Greg. Stacey, it's good to be with you.

Greg Oliver 58:34

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for spending some time with us.

Adam Young 58:38

Thank you.