49 | Nick Liberto: Humility is a Secret Superpower

It's always fun and encouraging to talk with other people who work in the same spaces. NICK LIBERTO is the executive director at Proven Ministries, an organization committed to "seeing a revival of sexual integrity throughout the entire Bride of Christ." They provide support and resources for men, women, and ministry leaders. Proven has created many resources to support sexual integrity, including TheSexTalk.com, an online course for parents who want to effectively provide sexual education and discipleship for their kids.

Nick is also the co-host of the I'm Telling God About This podcast, and recently published his first book, a satirical how-to guide called "How to Remain Humble When You've Never Been Wrong in Your Life: A Self-Help Book for the Man Who's Never Needed One."

But while topic of humility is approached satirically in his book, Nick understands true humility is no laughing matter: it's a critical part of healing and recovering from unwanted sexual behaviors, porn addiction, etc. We get into a great discussion on the role of humility in living healthy and free. 

Nick lives in Lynchburg, VA with his wife and three children.

#nickliberto #provenministries #provenmen #sexualintegrity #pornaddiction #sexaddiction #thesextalkdotcom #healing #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Proven Ministries (website)

TheSexTalk.com (online parents’ course)

I’m Telling God About This (Spotify) (Apple Podcasts)

Transcript

Greg 0:00

Do you pronounce your last name Liberto or Liberto?

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Liberto works. That's how I say it. Liberto. Liberto, yeah. Okay.

Greg 0:06

Not too heavy on the T.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

If you can roll your R, it sounds appropriately Italian as opposed to, but Liberto. I can't roll my Rs. So Liberto. I can't roll my R's, so yeah.

Announcer 0:17

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Greg 0:30

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. Today is episode 49. Our guest is Nick Laberto, and it's called Humility is a Secret Superpower. This is a really fun conversation I recently got to have with a new friend. Nick is the executive director of Proven Ministries. They provide information, resources, support for people who realize that they need that type of help, very aligned with what we do with Awaken. And I've known of Nick for a very long time. We've exchanged emails a few times, but this is the first chance I had to actually have a conversation with him. Nick is not only the executive director of Proven, he is also the co-host of a podcast called I'm Telling God About This. Nick's book that came out last year is called How to Remain Humble When You've Never Been Wrong in Your Life, a self-help book for the man who's never needed one. And I congratulated him on having the most pretentious book title I've ever heard. And that was, of course, purposefully so. It's a quick, easy read. It's kind of like a bathroom reader if you're kind of used to those books where you can just kind of sit there and enjoy some light reading. That's that's exactly the tone, and it uses satire to really drive home a point that I think a lot of us could spend some time considering, and that is, am I as humble as I think I am? Or, hey, I'm I'm really humble and I'm quite proud about that. The topic of humility can definitely open up doors for some fun conversation, but it actually, in our case, opened up the door for some really deep conversation where we got into how it's really not a laughing matter in some cases because the lack of humility or even the shame that presents on the surface as a lack of humility can get in the way of the growth and the healing that we're looking for. And so we talked about that as well as some of the many great resources that Proven has put out into the world to help people who are seeking recovery, but also to help parents who are looking for good resources to sexually educate and disciple their kids. And one of those is a resource called thesextalk.com. We'll talk about that towards the end of the interview. If you have young kids or if you've got older kids and you feel like you want to go back and revisit some of these topics because you don't feel good or confident about the way that you have prepared them to be sexually healthy adults, Nick is a husband and father. He loves spending time with his family. You'll hear him talk about that a little bit. Again, this was a fun conversation, a real serious one. Nick has a lot of energy and intensity. I think you'll really enjoy getting to know him. It's called Humility is a Secret Superpower. Our guest is Nick Liberto, and the conversation starts right now. Greg, how are you, sir? I'm doing well. Thanks for doing this. This is gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Oh, yeah. I'm super excited and honored.

Greg 3:20

It's always nice too talking to somebody who does podcasting because you know it's gonna sound good.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yes. I I literally just got the new upgraded Rode Pro interface thing. So yeah, we're playing with all the cool new tools. It's fun.

Greg 3:37

I mean, you know, it's fun to play around with stuff like that that we'll probably never really use on the show, but yeah, sure, sure. Know that we could if we wanted to. I only had to bleep out my wife, Stacey, one time.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Oh, there you go. That's awesome.

Greg 3:53

We've we've talked about this in getting ready for this recording, but people who are in similar lines of work, I mean, we're sort of in the same space in what we do. A lot of times we feel like we know each other better than we actually do just because we're aware of what other people in the space are doing. And that's how I've felt about you for a long time. So it's it's really good to just have some dedicated time to slow down and talk about what we have the privilege of doing and just some fun stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, I'm excited, man. Excited to be here. And I joke with my team all the time that yeah, there are so few of us on the front lines in the trenches in this sort of work that we all know each other, we all love each other, we all lock arms, and then it's you know, it it the the select few that are in this space. It's just cool. So honored to do it, but then equally just honored to hang out with you and connect.

Greg 4:43

Well, as we do hang out and hopefully connect, I feel pretty pretty confident we're gonna do that. Let me ask you the kickoff question we always have for our guests. And Nick, what do you really want out of our conversation today?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah, if I'm honest, the thing that I want the most is just to provide a moment of unplug for the listener, which you know, I consume a lot of podcasts. And so obviously value add, but you know, for someone listening, I just want them to be able to unplug for a minute wherever they are in their world and really go along for the ride where we're gonna, I believe, unpack humility and some other really cool things that I'm passionate about in the world and how this can bless them. So that's what I want.

Greg 5:29

Yeah, I hope so. I hope they don't uh unplug enough so as not to listen. But yeah, maybe, maybe after that. Like and subscribe. Yeah, like and subscribe, leave a positive review. Uh, but then after doing all that, to really I the one of the best compliments that I've gotten since we started doing this show was people who said that they got done listening and then they just kind of went off somewhere quiet to think about it a little bit more. Which man, if if we can, I mean, that's exactly what we what we hope for. Because in some way, form, shape, or fashion, what we all really want is to feel and to live more deeply connected lives. And so, yeah, I hope that this conversation is going to point people toward that. Amen. Well, man, tell me a little bit about you. I always like for our guest or our listeners rather to get to know our guest. And I don't assume that everybody does. So, for people who don't know who Nick Liberto is, help us fix that.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. So I am a husband, a father of three. I live in Lynchburg, Virginia. I run and have been the executive director of Proven Ministries, a sexual integrity, faith-based nonprofit, for the last 10 years. And I'm a millennial. So I'm a unique breed of, you know, I can speak both languages, and I remember the invention of the smartphone and the internet and the computers and and all of this. And so I was just joking with my buddy that like I remember the rotary phone. Like rotary phones used to work when I was alive. And um yeah, so a little bit about me. Um, I'm very passionate about the Lord's work and the kingdom. Not only do I lead this ministry, I have a podcast of my own called the I'm Telling God About This Podcast, where I'm I'm very passionate about right now because we are four Christian men moving through the world, really kind of like talking about just what's what's going on and how we're processing it. It will inform our conversation today because I think it will be very similar. And you know, you go through a bonfire with a buddy or you're grabbing coffee with a buddy and you get into a really awesome conversational pocket, and then you have that thought, oh, we should have just recorded this because that would have been amazing. So that's essentially what we did with the podcast. And um, Jack of all trades, king of nothing. I have my hands, you know, dipped into a lot of different buckets, and I don't know. I'm just very passionate about all sorts of different things. And so I'm an adventurer and an explorer in the kingdom at heart. And so I'm honored to be here and you know connect with your listeners a bit.

Greg 8:09

How do you feel about being a Jack of all trades? Uh, because I I've had this conversation with other people because I read a book a few years ago called Range on the difference between being a specialist or being a generalist, and how oftentimes generalists in a specialized world don't really get a whole lot of pats on the back. Uh, it's more like try harder and you can be really great at one thing. But what what's your experience been like having a lot of varied interests and having just kind of dipping into a whole lot of different things that you try, I guess, try your hand at?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, that's a great question. I've actually never been asked that question before. I like it because of the way that I'm wired. I like a challenge. I don't like to be bored. And so, though you are right, we do live in a specialist world. I would lose my mind if I was in a specialist field. And so, what that means is I tend to navigate towards entrepreneurial endeavors, higher levels of leadership where there's no reality where you're ever doing one thing. So I think, you know, that that principle is curiously true, but I think it changes as you go through hierarchical tiers of organizational structure. And I think God has just wired me as a jack of all trades, king of nothing, which is again is just a trope of a phrase. And the way I like to look at it is I have a lot of value to bring to many different areas and places and spaces of his kingdom, and I like to become masters of all of those pockets, and so like I I could have an hour different conversation on a hundred different things that I'm really into and passionate about and quite good at, but I like the always learning, always growing, yeah. What that gives me. Like, if I was just in marketing, which is one of my fun loved passions, I feel like I'd get bored. But because I'm in 30 other things plus marketing, and you know, if you're the executive director of an organization, there's no reality where you're not wearing eight hats any day of the week. And so I I enjoy the Jack of All Trades, King of Nothing. I although I will also say there are days, plenty of days, where I dream of being a janitor, and I would love to just have a mop and a floor and a toilet to go clean and pop my ears in. And I think I would enjoy it for like two months and then I would want to go, I would be going crazy.

Greg 10:40

But yeah, well, I've done that job when I was in Bible college. I was a janitor at a huge church in Birmingham, Alabama. And most days it was great because you could I could clean my area. What was really fantastic is when I would just be buffing a tile floor with earphones in and just like going somewhere else. What wasn't so awesome was that time that I caught a middle school kid taking a dump in a urinal.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

That part wasn't the best, but you know, I was also a janitor in high school, uh, for my high school. And so, like, I also have not that crazy of a story, but yeah, janitor life. All that to say, I like the idea of simplicity and uh narrow focus as well. And so yeah, I I I like both. And so it's not like, oh, one's better than the other, but I think I try and play to my skills and my strengths. And so most of my journey in life has been how do I move through the world, the way that I'm wired? Yeah, it has its own hurdles at times too.

Greg 11:39

Well, I think that too for me, I related a lot of what you were just saying because my curiosity, my interest in a whole bunch of other things, I think is part of how God made me. I think part of how God made me, though, was hyperactive. And I think that ADHD or at least ADHD adjacent people like me need to have something to task shift back and forth to, so as not to just get, you know, totally bored. I I like the fact that in my job that it is wearing multiple hats all the time. Sometimes it's frustrating, but most of the time I think it's less frustrating than if I was only doing one thing. So I definitely get it. So speaking of not doing just one thing, there's another thing that you have done not long ago that probably not that many people know about is you're an author under the name of NM Liberto, and you came out with a book recently. What was it, last 2024? Is that when it came out? Yeah. Okay. Just last year, yeah. Called How to Remain Humble When You've Never Been Wrong in Your Life. A self-help book for the man who's never needed one. First off, I want to just say well done on the most impressively pompous title I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

That is the exact response I was going for when picking that title.

Greg 13:00

Well, it's funny because when you and I had a phone call scheduled to kind of talk about this interview in our recording today, I told you that the day of our phone call is when I discovered that book. And it really for me sort of steered the ship in the direction of what I decided I wanted us to talk about. Because, you know, in the title, it's How to Remain Humble. And it's a very satirical book. And it's kind of making a point in the negative. You want to talk about it a little bit? I I've read the whole thing now, and it really is funny.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

And yes, I would love to talk about it. And I'm glad that you thought it was funny. And really, my my 30,000-foot view of like the goal was to put some fun and some play and some laughter into the world. So even your initial response was literally my uniquely designed goal and outcome with writing it. And really what I was, you know, I don't think the world needs more how to be better books or more, let me tell you how you aren't doing something right and self-help this and all that. And and, you know, it's not bad, and I'm not knocking people that write books, but I was really just going for play and for fun. And so the all, you know, I've been married now for almost 10 years, and back to the whole jack of all trades, king of nothing. Uh, there's uh oftentimes a joke in my marriage and in my circles of my father, it was the same way. It was, how does dad know all these things? And I got my jack of all trades, king of nothing from him and his confidence and this, that, and the other. And so the line kind of came to me in bits and pieces. But how to remain humble when you've never been wrong in your life, you know, that is obviously a joke because there's obviously no such thing as someone who's never been wrong in their life. But I think that was really kind of the point for a guy. You know, we don't, we don't in our culture today get a lot of props and and get a lot of like, you know, we're always told to be better and do more and and things like that. So this was just a kind of like a little celebration to the confident man that moves through the world. And so ironically, I launched this just before Father's Day, and everybody and their grandmother was grabbing it for the man, the dad, and their life as a Father's Day gift because it's the perfect coffee table gag gift. And and and this first time, no matter who it is, when they see the cover, they just start smiling or laughing. And I'm like, that is exactly the goal. And so I'm glad that you've enjoyed it and it made you smile and laughing. And and that was the goal. And you know, we can get into like maybe some of the deeper, buried, satirical truths within there. Yeah, because they're there.

Greg 15:42

I mean, that that's I think that's one of the markers of good satire is that it uh it's kind of sharp. And it's sharp because it's it's a little bit stabby. And if you if you get the joke, it doesn't hurt so bad. But uh man, if you're if you're going through it clueless, it it can it can sting. I I'm just gonna read a really quick little pull from it. Um you know, one of the the head the the section headings in the first chapter of the book is called Celebrating Your Righteousness in Safe Spaces. Uh, you know, and it's just really being compassionate towards the person who's never done anything wrong. Says, you need an outlet, a private one. Create a group chat with other infallible beings, share screenshots of incorrect tweets, host secret correction parties where you drink wine and fix Wikipedia entries. Write a blog called Actually, and I love the Oscar Martinez reference there, um, and use it to cleanse your soul or start a podcast where you just read Reddit comments and fact check them live. Most importantly, find your people, the quiet geniuses who also bite their tongue at trivia night, who Google things silently instead of arguing, who live for the satisfaction of a perfect semicolon. You're not weird. You're just operating at a higher intellectual altitude. The air is thin up here, but the grammar is flawless.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Exactly.

Greg 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I'm literally thinking of people in my brain right now that live in that reality of like the most like the semicolon goes here, it doesn't go here. You gotta, you know, like that that perfection in grammar and communication and style.

Greg 17:15

So well, I mean, I just marked this up under it's funny because it's true. And because I'm that person in my family and my circles too. And I I don't try to be, but sometimes it's just really hard to not say something.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

So no, that's that's that's exactly right. And that's kind of the response I was going for. And and I think that's another fun point of note for someone listening, is this is a very short, easy to read book because I wasn't really going for like a a huge page turner that takes you forever to get through and it lives on your nightstand forever. I was really going for like the the like bathroom reading material magazine rack, and like I was really kind of like vibing on that when I wrote this of like simple little truths and anecdotes as you just flip through rather than like from beginning to end a sit-down percent.

Greg 18:03

Anything to get you off your phone uh when you're on the toilet, because that's just gross. Well, you said something a minute ago when you were talking about the book. You say obviously it's a joke, and it is to you, and it is to me, because I I I got the satire, but I've actually met men who might not catch immediately that the book is satire, and I bet you have too.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, I think I have, and I think more than anything else, the the title does satirically sum it up how to remain humble when you've never been wrong in your life. I I may you may know some men, you maybe have met some men that on the surface might vibe that way or move through the world that way, but like they know at at when they slow down, when they're by themselves in quiet, like that's not actually true, but there is this pride piece, there is this I can never be wrong, or what does that say for me piece. And so yeah, I I would say more than anything, I know I know more men that know they're not always right, but they find that that may be said of them or leveled against them at times in their relationships and things of that nature. And so, in a way, through the satire, it was really trying to not only get uh a guy to look at himself and and laugh a little bit and maybe not take himself so seriously, and and maybe see the oh yeah, this is obviously not a thing. So for the guy that might think that, this hopefully helps him see that this is obviously not a real reality that anyone would ever and could ever inhabit. But then also for the guy who maybe feels like he's seen a little bit on these pages, as you kind of mentioned, like at the same time, it's also fun to acknowledge, like, oh, I feel seen. This is so great. So it's interesting. There's the duality of that approach.

Greg 20:07

You mentioned the word pride, and I think obviously if you've got someone who's presenting the way that you talk about the guy who's never done anything wrong in the book, the first thing that an outside observer would say is just put a put a tag on that guy, says he's just really prideful or arrogant or narcissistic or egotistical, whatever. But in the line of work that you and I are both in, which is, you know, running ministries that have to do with sexual integrity, intersecting with so many people whose stories involve deep sexual brokenness. I know that I encounter people who at the front end are are posturing or fronting with an awful lot of what appears to be ego and what appears to be, well, I don't really need help. You know, I'm only doing this because I got caught or so-and-so, or this or that. I really know what to do. And I've become convinced that sure, there are some people who have, you know, diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder. There's a lot more people who behave narcissistically, but there's really something else going on under the surface. And a lot of times, even though we'd call it pride, it may be sort of reverse pride, which is shame.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yes, exactly.

Greg 21:21

And and and I I wonder if this would be a good time to kind of pivot using the book and the tongue-in-cheek kind of tee up that it does to get into why it's really important for us to look at our relationship with humility and how that's gonna help us to walk through some of the broken parts of our lives.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah, no, I mean, I I love that. And, you know, and to be frank, this book is not written to teach a man how like open up your journal and start taking notes. This this book's gonna tell you how to be humble, but that doesn't change the truths there and you know, the satire thread that we're Pulling on, but no, I actually believe humility is a secret superpower that our culture does not acknowledge, like wholesale does not acknowledge. I'm not gonna say it's the everything, but if you can study and master humility, I I I think not only do we see that in the master, in Jesus, which should be all that we need to hear, but equally it it allows you to move through a broken world wisely, not only with yourself, but with others. And so, yeah, humility is is an amazing superpower that so few possess. And I think I think really, just frankly speaking, it's because nothing in our culture makes it seem cool. Like no component at all makes makes humility seem cool. Like uh it's I'll butcher it, it's not even worth me trying to quote it. But Simon Sinek has a a quote around leadership and being the last one to speak in a room. And you know, we could unpack it a little bit. What is humility? How does it look? I would say it looks different in every facet of your of your life. Like, what is humility in marriage? What is humility in your work? What is humility in friendship? It is a very important trait and skill that I think we all should want to utilize, acquire, become masters of. Because to your point, it it kills the pride, arrogance, narcissism. And in a way, I think humility is getting closer to what we see in scripture, which is that above reproach language. And so that that's roughly speaking, what I like to use as a litmus test for somebody's ability or mastery of humility is do, you know, going through the world, pick a friend, do you think they they are above reproach? And if so, I would imagine that they're pretty good at humility. And if you don't think that about them, I would imagine that that's probably a a skill they should work a little bit more towards.

Greg 24:10

Yeah. I mean, most of the people that I would probably rattle off and make a list of some of the most humble people I know are the ones whose brokenness I've also been invited into and have been allowed to be privy to the things that they've gotten wrong in their lives. You know, there's not a lot of people that I would say are really humble that I don't know anything about their failures. But but it's kind of a trap, isn't it? Because you you talked about how humility is not really championed or promoted in culture. And so by the time people show up in a sexual recovery environment like you're a part of, like I'm a part of, they sometimes will struggle being honest, being humble. And rather than criticize them, it's almost like, well, of course you're showing up fronting and having to have all of the answers because I mean, we're pushed our entire lives to be excellent at everything, right? And that's just not realistic. And so many things that we push ourselves in life to do are not realistic. But all of the voices, they don't say, well, do the best you can, but accept failure, you know. And I understand wanting to set a good, a high standard of excellence, but it seems like we're driven to push for a standard of perfection and flawlessness. And so if we're told that's how we've got to be, then humility is not gonna be a natural byproduct. And then when we fail, now we've got to hide it, right? So it's it's almost like, maybe not almost, it seems to me like it's a setup.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, and I would say that's because of the way our culture is wired, all the more reason why we want to be plugged into a local church in a faith community that prioritizes the kingdom skills, not the worldly skills, because humility is saying, I don't have all the answers, or I don't know this, or leading from behind, or servant leadership, or any number of these, to your point, non-glorified, at least in the secular world, things, but we know we are to be in the world, but not of the world. And and we know that the things we are called to and that the the gospel calls us to, you know, humility is one of those components in the DNA that makes us successful as kingdom emissaries in the world here and now. And so I don't know, like in a way, I agree, and then I say, so what? Because if the world is, you know, like we've seen where the hedonism, where the secularist goes, where the let's just focus on money or the economics or the whatever, like the the world has no true north, but we know that God gives us the the most best, ultimate true north. And so in his economy, humility is greatly prioritized.

Greg 27:12

Yeah, you say we've seen this, and I think I know what you mean by that. I'm a lot older than you are. I'm not a millennial, I'm a you know, older side Gen X, but I have lived enough and have failed enough to see that some of the world's messages are at least incomplete, at least not balanced. But I don't I'd love for you to speak to this in a minute. In Awakens community of men who are in recovery from unwanted or addictive sexual behavior, we've seen a trend over the last, well, over the 10 years that we've been around of the average and the median age of the men coming in is it keeps going down and down and down because they're getting to the point where they are recognizing that their struggle is out of control, you know, maybe 10, 12 years after they started heavily using pornography. And so now, because so many of them started very young, like seven, eight years old, we've got a lot of single men, college students who are coming in and saying, I I need help. And so, and I'm thinking they don't know a lot of the things that older men know. They don't, they don't have the experience yet to see why humility makes sense. And so talk a little bit about maybe what you've seen and how people who connect with proven ministries, for some older men get a reminder, but for some younger men, maybe get a crash course in the value and the virtue of humility in addressing a problem that's gotten too big for them.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah, no, I would say at its core, the point of engagement and the point of action we often see, not often, every time we see the ones that still have pride never make it. They they don't they don't say they need help. They'll do the classic white knuckling, I got this. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. But the ones that come to the end of themselves, and those stories are always different, and it could be any number of you know horrible things, whether done to them or or places they find themselves stuck, when that level of humility, even if it's just you know, the beginnings of it, that it it begins with like, I actually do need help. And like that is a humble statement, a humble thought, a humble beginning. And what I like about our community, your community, the the the very few communities that exist, unfortunately, in this space, is that we love to celebrate that step of humility. In a way, we are trying to flip that script where they're coming in with some shame and with some, I don't know how this is going to be received because I've never lived in a in a reality where I can be vulnerable with my weakness. Yeah. And and what I do hope we continue to give, and our orgs and other similar ministries give is that good gift of, you know, we're not at the end of the journey, nor are we trying to be Jesus, but like, well done, good and faithful servant. Like this step was amazing, and we see you, and we are here for you, and yes, and amen. And so I don't think this it might not be true. I don't think humility is something you can read about and then just decide to do. I think it's more of a practice you need to begin inhabiting and practicing. And in our line of work, uh, I I do think for the for the listener who is maybe there, like don't be afraid of that humility of that first step because you are safe, you are in a safe place, and you are with people that can be trusted. And so, yeah, no, I I I love that first step for that reason and for that humility. And then I think throughout their journey, at least what we've seen, is it does continually take the rejection of pride, the rejection of self, and the invitation of allowing Jesus and His and the Holy Spirit to come in and and do that work, which by the way, is a humble process every step of the way.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

And so I don't see how it can be done without humility.

Greg 31:34

Yeah. You mentioned well done, that people who are seeking to surrender parts of their lives that have been really, really broken, where they've found a lot of failure, not getting the results that they wanted, being able, I guess, to envision a scenario in which the Lord would say to them, Well done. And and I think we both understand that for people who have had compulsive or addictive relationships with their sex lives, that from the time that they first ask for help until the day they die or Jesus comes back, for many of them, it's not going to be a blemishless or a flawless experience, you know, correct. In kind of, you know, recovery fellowship language that's been around for decades. You know, there's phrases like relapse is a part of recovery. And so we know for many people who are asking for and receiving help, it's not going to be a road that doesn't have bumps, that doesn't have setbacks. And I guess one of the things I'd love to get your take on is people who come to awaken, and I make up, you can correct me if I'm wrong, people who come to proven ministries are probably by and large those who I would identify as Christians. Would you say that's fair?

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Oh, 100%.

Greg 32:51

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so they've had varying experiences with messages that they've heard. We've talked about messages from culture, but there's also messages from church culture that talk about struggles with sin, particularly struggles with sexual sin. And so this whole concept of progress, not perfection, you know, how do you encourage people who are the strugglers not to take that as justification for continue acting out? But then how would you also encourage ministry leaders to not be either inadvertently or purposefully pushing this unrealistic message of perfection towards people that's just going to discourage them as they're really trying to surrender this to Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Does that question make sense? Oh, 100%. Yes. And so I would say that the gospel of sin management is not a good thing, nor is the gospel of perfection. And so we have two pendulums that are in the big sea church. And we see Jesus plenty of times saying, Be be perfect as I am perfect, be holy as I am holy. And and and at times we see Paul using language around the flesh and the spirit, and how there is this wrestling, and how you know, whichever one you feed is the one that will essentially grow. And so, from my vantage point, the way I kind of look at this is that we live in a culture and a time, I personally believe that does not prioritize enough self-control and discipline. Like we see all throughout scripture wisdom. Wisdom and the application of wisdom means doing things. And and so, you know, it's a wise man that has a filter on his phone. It's a wise man that chooses to protect his environment in such a way where he is not prone to experiencing unnecessary temptation and lust in this specific thread. But then equally, we see plenty of times in scripture that no matter how close you are to Jesus, it doesn't mean you're not going to stumble and fail. And so there is a wrestle and a tension in the believer for, and specifically for the believer in struggling with unwanted sexual behaviors and you know, uh sexual struggles, where you know, you have to do your part, which I don't think many people talk about at all. Like you have to actually do things. The whole like pray harder and it'll go away. Like that, that was, you know, 20 years ago. And and so, you know, we have to be wise, we have to be men of self-control, of discipline, of integrity, of honor. We have to do work to lean in of humility, to lean into the fruits of the spirit. Like the fruits of the spirit don't just happen to you. You have to focus on them and allow them to be fed in you. But then equally, we have to have grace for ourselves as we do wrestle with the flesh. And so, yeah, no, uh, a gospel of perfection is not correct, but then we we we still need to be careful not to avoid the like we are called to holiness, and that's still true and real. But, you know, this side of glory, we are supposed to be going on this path, and this proven path is a path of sanctification. And, you know, this doesn't mean a relapse can't occur and you can't skin your knee again and you can't ever make a mistake, but you are on the path and you need to be moving down the path. So, like, which I think I like this language because it takes care of the other side of the pendulum, which is like you can just keep making mistakes and coming back and it'll be all great. No, no, no. Like you need to be moving forward on the path of sanctification, but no one's gonna shame you and beat you over the head for for stumbling or skinning your knee or or or making a mistake.

Greg 36:54

And so I And if everybody in your life is shaming you and condemning you for scraping your knee, then you need more people in your community than just those two.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yeah, you got the wrong, you got the wrong people in your corner at that point. Correct. Yeah, and and after 10 years of this work, I just more clearly see that tension of holiness and sanctification that we are 100% called to as believers, and the process of sanctification and you know, sin and flesh that is present because of the fall, this side of glory. And so, yeah, it's a tension we always have to work through.

Greg 37:30

And because it's a tension, I feel like that confirms the necessity of having supportive community as you're going through this. This is not a drop-in thing. You can't just read a book or go through like a workbook on your own. Because to be honest with you, the language of recovery is confusing. Well, you can't do this, but this is all the stuff you need to do, right? You're powerless, but you still have to take, you know, that's confusing unless you have people in your life who have walked it and said, yes, it is confusing, but it's the it's the this and also this. I mean, two things can be true. Two things can be true at the same time, and they seem like cognitive dissonance, but it's really just learning how to how to walk in complexity. And and that's not something that people who've been living in isolation are used to. And so, yeah, I mean, in in 12-step language, it would be like admitting that we're powerless, but then assuming that means, well, I just sit there and life happens to me, right? And so therefore, so will recovery. No, you've got to show up, but know that my optimal gear is not gonna be enough to make the outcome. That's gotta be God. And so it's the yes, this, and also that. And we can't understand that from square one unless we have people who are walking through that with us, can we?

SPEAKER_01 38:49

No, definitely not. And I I think there's a uh a unique thread we've accidentally uncovered here, and it is humility because that is actually what is required to work through that nuance. Humility says, I'm confident, but I don't have all the answers. Yes, which is two things can be true at once. And humility would say, Lord Jesus, I want to do the things you call me to do and and move through the world with self-discipline and control and wisdom and and the fruits of the spirit. And at the same time, you know, I don't know how to do everything right and I keep making some mistakes. Please, Lord Jesus, help me. And and well, again, we're not gonna get hung up in the theology here, but like faith without works is dead, right? Like two things can be true at once. We are well aware that our salvation is not a works-based salvation, but like there are two things happening there that feel like they're opposite, but we have to be able to work through that nuance.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

And, you know, to that same point in the journey of recovery, you cannot do it by yourself. I mean, like, we have like a unofficial rule where if we find somebody who bought a book because they're just trying to do it by themselves, we will not ship it to them and refund them their money and basically be like, this is not gonna work. Let me save you your time some time and we'll eat the credit card fee. That's how much we know it's not gonna work if you try and do it by yourself. Yeah, no, the back to that whole first step. That first step is saying, I need help. I need help, Lord Jesus, and then I need help from the community he's giving me. And and so, you know, we are never called to do anything in isolation.

Greg 40:30

And back to your well done comment. I mean, ultimately we're looking to hear that from Jesus, but along the way, we need to let others hear it from us so that they can not miss those markers of progress. Because, you know, the what some people would call humility is probably shame that they're showing up with. It's but that's more of an I suck at everything, you know, like that's not humility, that's just shame. But humility would be to to bring it into the light and say, I've failed again. And then to have somebody else be able to say, okay, yeah, that's what you did most recently, but let's take a look, let's broaden the lens a little bit. Do you remember all the progress that has been made in your life? You know, well done. Like, and even well done in calling me to tell me about this slip because you didn't have to do that. And I mean, I know personally I've just been able to be used by God, and I'm so grateful for it to help people see that they're not as hopeless. Well, they're not hopeless at all. They they're not hopeless like they think they are when they're bringing in. And when they say, I bring nothing good to the table, like, well, you made this phone call, you know, that's a pretty good thing. You chose honesty, and that in and of itself was a humble thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah, 100%. And to your point about shame versus humility, shame is the I suck. I am not any good. And I I would I would imagine it's hard for anyone to take any action in shame, unless it's like a you got caught shame, and then you're forced to take action, which we do know these stories, but that level of humility is the in this specific conversation, in this specific point, is the like I messed up, but I need help. Like the I need help part is that humility enters the scene. And there is help to be gotten. They got they gotta believe that.

Greg 42:24

And that's why I'm thankful that there are far more people. I mean, you've talked a couple of times about how there aren't enough people doing this kind of work, and there aren't in proportion to the number of people struggling, but gosh, there are far more people doing this kind of work and offering this kind of hope and help than when I started my recovery in 2009. I'm really grateful for that. And one of the things I want to take a shift over to one more thing I want to talk about before our time is done. We've been talking mostly about people who come into relationship with us with this brokenness. Many, if not most, were kind of left to figure all this stuff out for themselves. So many people, if you look at their family of origin story and their early life scenarios, they just didn't have anyone investing in them to teach them how to express their emotion, to identify their emotion, to ask questions about things they were curious about. Nobody in their life to celebrate their sexuality as a good thing. You know, one of the things I'm most grateful for in the space in which we work over probably the last three or four years, we're actually looking at how can we generationally get in front of this. And, you know, books like Sam Jolman's The Sex Talk You Never Got that talks about just a whole new way of looking at masculine sexuality as something to bless, not to curse. Jay Stringer has a new book coming out next year called Desire that says desire is a good thing. But Proven Ministries has done that too with a resource that's been available for a couple of years now. Tell us a little bit about the sex. Sextalk.com. How is it that you guys are trying to help young parents who didn't receive this from their parents know what to pass on to their kids so that their kids aren't set up the same way that they were?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Dude, you hit the nail on the head, and that is the reason we built the sextalk.com. I want to work myself out of a job.

Greg 44:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

And there is a high likelihood of that happening if every parent listening doesn't say, I still have time, I still have time. And they acknowledge and realize that the reality is average age of exposure is eight years old. Most of the moms and dads I talk to that start at the age of 13 found out they're already four years too late, and that we need to be sexually discipling our children because if we're not, the enemy is.

Greg 44:46

And by the way, before you go on, let me just say that average age of exposure is eight. Average age of exposure to unsimulated porn is eight. Average age of exposure to sexually suggestive things far younger than that, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Oh, yeah.

Greg 45:01

Yeah. Hundreds of things. The stuff we see all the time that that that piques curiosity and makes us even our kids more vulnerable to seeing porn.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Correct. Yeah. The enemy is constantly planting seeds that are lies into the minds of our children. And I promise you, mom and dad, if you allow that seed to grow, because you don't talk about it, about how God made men and women, about all the many different things, that what will happen is that seed will grow quietly and in the dark. And then, God forbid, 10 years later, you're having to do a whole bunch of catch up and a whole lot of fallout, and it's just a mess. And so we built the sextalk.com as a preventative resource to give mom and dad the easy button, the secret sauce of 25 years of ministry, download it into 14 easy-to-consume videos. And I joke with parents, instead of watching Netflix for two weeks, just do this instead, and you will secure the innocence of your children. The investment, I'm gonna help my child enter this world wise, well, and so that they can thrive in a sexually saturated world is the simplest yes a mom or a dad can can put on that table. And to your point, it's age-appropriate conversations for a decade. 10 minutes here, five minutes a week here. It's nothing crazy, but it's just beginning to prioritize this in their child's mind. And the the ultimate question I give to a mom or a dad is do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if your child is exposed to hardcore pornography or God forbid a sexual abuse advance or anything like that, that they're gonna come to you immediately, right away, and tell you about it and know what is happening. And if you can't say yes to that question, then you need the sextalk.com. And and yeah, we're really excited about it. If I'm honest, it's the thing I'm the most excited about right now in my ministry because there can be a reality where our children grow up thriving when we polled parents. I think it's like 85% of parents got no sex talk at all. 10% of them got like one really awkward one, and then we're just hoping that they figure it out. Why would we consign our children?

Greg 47:17

Well, they're gonna figure something out, and they're figuring that out now in a season in history where the way they figure it out is by asking Google, Chat GPT, they're not even necessarily asking their friends, they're asking technology, which is where they're going to get all of the most horrendous and descriptive and graphic answers that they're not ready for.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Correct. Yeah, if you don't teach them, the world will. When they're curious, they're gonna go ask Google. And so, like, I I can't beat this dead horse enough. You do not still have time. You are on a race with the devil to get to your children first. My my friend Drew Boa says it's the power of first mention. You want to plant the good seed in your child's mind and have that first mention first before the enemy gets there, and then the that negative lie begins to grow. And so, yeah, proven ministries is about a revival of sexual integrity throughout the entire bride of Christ. But let me say the number one and probably only way we're ever going to achieve that is if no child, no Christian child grows up in a home where the mom and dad are not the primary sex educators.

Greg 48:28

Yeah. And I think it's important to acknowledge this by taking advantage of a resource like thesextalk.com, you're not guaranteed an outcome of your kids not struggling. But what you are doing is you're greatly increasing the chance that they know that you are safe, that they're getting the information from you first so that no matter where they stray, when they need to come back, they're gonna know how to come back. And they're going to know that mom and dad aren't gonna freak out if they say I've done this or if they have these questions, because mom and dad have already gone there.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, 100%. And I I say you're preparing them for the when, because it's not if, it's when it's gonna happen. And I'm actually curious what you think about this, Greg. I was teasing on this thread in a podcast episode recently. I have 10 years of experience here, you have 10. So with 20 years of collective experience together, has anyone ever come across your desk because they saying my mom and dad prioritized age-appropriate conversations around biblical sex and sexuality so much that I still find myself struggling? Do you have any story like that in your keeping?

Greg 49:44

No, I would say to be fair, I have a few where it wasn't taboo, where you know, the parents would say, Hey, if you can come to me if you have any questions, right? And that's better than nothing. But better than nothing. But how how would I even know what to have a question about, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Correct.

Greg 50:02

And and so, yeah, no, I mean, 100% record of people not getting enough.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Correct. And and so, like, I'm not saying this is like causality here, but if I was a parent listening and I heard that 20 years of sexual integrity, nonprofit work, you know, helping individuals struggling with unwanted sexual behaviors, and never once has someone come across their desk saying, My mom and dad leaned into this so hard, acting like and presenting themselves as a coach, as a support, as someone who can come alongside of me and teach me about every aspect of God's design for sex and sexuality. I can't help but believe that that is the recipe for setting your children up to thrive and flourish.

Greg 50:45

So just so that you don't have to say it, as somebody who makes nothing from this product, it's really, really good. As somebody who is asked all the time to give recommendations to young parents, I'm so thankful to have that to tell people about.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Yeah, and and and the ultimate motivation is that next generation, which is what you said earlier, right? Like we want to give our children, your children, the gift I was not given, the gift so many were not given. I get out of bed in the morning excited about transforming and protecting and securing the innocence of this next generation.

Greg 51:20

Well, Nick, thank you for doing it, embodying what a lot of us get to get to know, which is that scripture says, Don't grow weary in well-doing, you know, for in due season, you reap a harvest if you don't faint.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Because some days it feels like uh this would be a really good day to faint. Honor to do it, Greg. And to be honest, it's honor to lock arms with you on the front lines. So, you know, we're gonna we're gonna keep on keeping on, and it really is a unique place to be called, but I can't imagine being anywhere else because for such a time as this, like God wants to use my story and redeem it. And and yeah, I I do feel like I'm excited to invest into those that are struggling in the next generation because I, you know, I don't want them to have my story.

Greg 52:02

We'll make sure that people can see in show notes all the ways to get in touch with proven ministries and what you guys offer. Nick, thanks so much for spending some time with us. Really appreciate you, brother.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

My pleasure, Greg, and uh had a had a blast. I look forward to talking to you soon, man.