48 | Barbara Steffens: Be a Safe Person and Listen

In the category of sexual addiction recovery, there are a few people who deserve to be called pioneers. BARBARA STEFFENS is definitely one of them. Over the last quarter century she has begun and advanced invaluable philosophy and resources related to partner betrayal trauma. Previous sex addiction conventional wisdom referred to the addict's partner as a "co-addict," used phraseology that ignored the post-traumatic stress partners undergo, and suggested they may bear some responsibility for their partner's addiction.

Barb, and many others since, have introduced a more compassionate and helpful approach, acknowledging betrayal trauma for the actual traumatic experience it is, and offering help and resources for partners seeking to heal from the extensive wounds of being betrayed. 

Barb is the founder of APSATS, the Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists; an organization that trains therapists to more compassionately and effectively work with partners of sex addicts.

#barbarasteffens #apsats #betrayaltrauma #betrayaltraumarecovery #pornaddiction #sexaddiction #healing #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

DrBarbaraSteffens.com (Barb's website)

APSATS (Assn. of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists) website

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and our entire city is depressed because our Bengals did so poorly last night. It's so sad.

Greg 0:10

Are you a Bengals fan?

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Well, I was.

Announcer 0:15

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:28

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. Today is episode 48. Our guest is Barbara Steffens, and it's called Be a Safe Person and Listen. So, hun, when we get to talk to people like Barb Steffens, I don't know if you feel this way, but for me, there are certain names in the space where we work that's like, oh man, they like they really started something that was important. You know, Michael John Koustic, and for a lot of people, more recent years, people like Jay Stringer, um, Adam Young, but you know, Barb Steffens, when it comes to the topic of partner betrayal trauma, there are just some names that kind of got that whole that whole area started. And hers was one of them.

Stacey 1:09

Yeah. I don't think I realized at the time that we started our journey that her book, Your Sexually Addicted Spouse, had just come out. That was one of the ones that I I I am not a reader necessarily, like an avid reader, but early on I did read books that I thought could be helpful, and that was really helpful.

Greg 1:27

Yeah. Well, in 2009, there wasn't a whole lot out there resource-wise for people who were walking through, couples who were walking through sexual recovery, addiction recovery, and betrayal trauma recovery. And so hers was one of the first and most important books that kind of got that ball rolling.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah.

Greg 1:44

And was instrumental in shifting the tone of the conversation away from seeing partners of sex addicts as being co-addicts, like you're just as sick as he is, you need to figure out why you were attracted to somebody like that. And and really kind of heaping shame on top of trauma.

Stacey 2:01

Right.

Greg 2:02

And she realized, and you'll hear her talk about it, that that just didn't seem like a loving or a helpful approach. And so what if we recognize that these partners are going through legitimate post-traumatic stress? And that would explain an awful lot of what's going on, and also would would help us understand why it's not helpful to use language that makes them feel like they're as much of a problem as the betraying partner.

Stacey 2:26

Yeah. And I think further down the road, when you work through some of that trauma, then some of the behaviors might not be the healthiest. Sure. But they're still not why he did what he did. We're still not at fault. It's not about that. It's just like, okay, if I show up this certain way and it makes you, Greg, want to run the other way or you don't feel safe to share with me, I'm not responsible to make you tell the truth. I don't have to make sure I say my words just so that you'll tell me the truth. But if I know that certain ways that I show up aren't helpful, then I I want to work on that, but certainly not in the early days.

Greg 3:04

And likewise for the type of work that you're talking about for partners and owning their own unhealthy tendencies, that's got to be done after safety and stability have been have been experienced.

Stacey 3:17

Yeah, for sure.

Greg 3:18

Well, thankfully there are a lot of additional names working in the space of helping people, helping partners heal from betrayal trauma. We got to hear several of them speak uh at the recent conference that we went to. But a lot of what is healthily practiced now in the space really kind of started with people like Barb Steffens and Marcia Means and Carol Sheets, and so we really owe them a debt of gratitude. And so we really hope that you will enjoy our conversation that we recently had with Barb Steffens. It's episode 48. It's called Be a Safe Person and Listen, and it's coming right now. Barbara Steffens, this is a treat for us. Thank you so much for joining us on what we really want today.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Oh, well, I'm really excited to uh have a chat with you. This is gonna be fun.

Greg 4:03

Yeah, it it's gonna be fun for us. Yours is a name that we have been familiar with and we've read your stuff. I'm just looking right here at our our kind of Oh, you have an old we have an old copy of Your Sexually Addicted Spouse, How Partners Can Cope and Heal. We're gonna talk all about that because you were one of several voices that was very influential and helpful to us in our early recovery. And so I've I I I think I can speak for both of us. We've been really looking forward to talking to you.

Stacey 4:33

Because you reminded me this came out in 2009. 2009 beginning of our journey.

Greg 4:39

Yeah. My my we call it fan day when you know what hits the fan. Mine was January 6th of 2009. And so our whole recovery has kind of been tracking with the work that you've been doing.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Oh, well, I'm glad that that book was available for you. Absolutely. Yeah.

Greg 4:54

Well, Barb, we'd love to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests, which is what do you really want out of our conversation?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Gosh, I think I just want certainly to help explain what betrayal trauma is. I I like telling people that because it's helpful information, but I really enjoy encouraging people that are going through this really hard process by, you know, sharing yeah, that what you're experiencing is typical. You're not the most unusual person in the world, so that you don't feel quite so crazy and lost. So I I hope that whoever's going to listen to this is going to feel encouraged. Yeah. That's what I want. Yeah.

Greg 5:35

Well, we know who you are, and we know a lot more about you, probably, than the typical person who hasn't spent much time around this subject. But I'd love for our listeners who may be less familiar or maybe even completely unfamiliar with Barb Stephens just to get to know you a little bit. Could you take a few minutes and help us get to know just who you are as a person?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Sure. Gosh. I am married, been married now for 52 years. Married my high school senior sweetheart. So that's been pretty sweet for most of the time, not all of the time.

SPEAKER_05 6:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I was a late bloomer. I didn't go back to get a college degree or anything until after I had two children and started with an associate's degree, and then was all done with my master's and practicing as a counselor here in the Cincinnati area. And then life happened. And my own experience of finding out about my husband's secrets kind of sent me on this path of going back to school to get a doctorate so that maybe I'd be listened to because I'm a woman and I'm a short woman. I wanted something about, you know, getting an extra something that says, you know, she might know a little bit about what she's talking about. But so I did that and I wanted to do some research around partners because I was just so unhappy and not a fan of what was going on at the time. It didn't make sense to me as a clinical person who had worked with a lot of people who had experienced significant trauma in their lives. And so when I started helping partners just by offering my support and my care and my listening, it was clear to me that I was hearing trauma in them. And then that helped me recognize where I had trauma in myself as well. So yeah. So now I'm, you know, a grandma of one, and he's 15, and he's probably going to be the best outfielder in Major League Baseball in the future. First base. Or first base. But yeah, we have uh a lot of fun. I am very active in my church and I love that part of my life right now, and really being engaged there. The real delight of my life is seeing how just stepping into doing this work that now um there are so many more people that are doing it. So I kind of call myself the grandma of the betrayal trauma field.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

And I have all these amazing, amazing people that have come and gotten trained and doing the work and helping. And it's been a amazing.

Greg 8:22

Well, yeah, the words that come to mind, you said grandma, the words that come to my mind are pioneer, you know, trailblazer. We were grateful last year to have Carol Sheets on the show with us. Oh, yeah. And she spoke super highly of you. I know you guys are pretty tight, have done a lot of work together. I'm just curious about something you shared from your story. When you became aware of your husband's secrets, how long had you two been married at that point?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Twenty three years. A long time. Yeah.

Greg 8:52

So it's been almost 30 years since then.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Yes.

Greg 8:55

So that's really, I think, something I want us to make sure that we talk about because when there's been betrayal of a sexual nature, I think people who come from a faith-based or a church perspective tend to drift to one side of the spectrum or the other, which is gotta forgive and move on and kind of minimize the impact. Or now I think there's much more freedom to end the relationship and with, you know, biblical grounds. But what about the majority of couples where even the betrayed partner would say she wants to reconcile?

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Right.

Greg 9:34

But but there's a lot of things that have to happen in order for that to be a reality. So you were married for a long time, as we're I mean, it happened with us after 17 years, and it's been almost 17 since. For you 23 years, and now it's been almost 30. So clearly, something that you pursued seems to have been effective. Talk a little bit about what it was like for you, kind of in those early days when you were in the crater of this discovery.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Well, I I felt very alone. I had a lot of friends, but I felt like I couldn't share this with anyone because they loved my husband. And a few friends that I did manage to tell were like, Why are you taking this so hard? Or all men, whatever, or minimized it. And so I had to go outside of my current. I think I had one friend that I knew that she got it, and she was with me through the whole process of teaching and she's still a good friend. So I had to find other people to process this with, which was very sad. That was a a part of a betrayal I didn't anticipate. That my friends couldn't be with me along the process the way I wanted them to be. You know, some are still friends, but they they weren't there, they could not be there, they did not know how to be there. So that was that was a surprise to me. And I have since found that for a lot of partners, that's just reality.

SPEAKER_05 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Unless this is something that you have stepped into that is blown up in your life, it's really hard for people to step into that process and to be there. To understand it is trauma, but also a great loss, a great grief.

Stacey 11:20

And we find ourselves explaining, right? I know I did. Yeah. Trying to explain the things to these people. They're trying to be helpful, but they just don't get it. And so it's a it's another level of exhaustion, too.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Yeah. Well, and and also because when it happened to me, the information I was finding was telling me I was co-addicted.

SPEAKER_05 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

And as a clinician, I was going, I don't even know what this is. This makes no sense to me. I would never say that to someone else who went through something else that was catastrophic in their life.

SPEAKER_05 11:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

So, how is it somehow my responsibility or I brought this on myself because of my childhood or whatever? I don't blame my friends for not understanding. But they didn't understand. And when I went to people who were working in the recovery field, I knew some people that were doing groups for men who were struggling. And I said, So, hey, Mr. I'll I won't say his name. He's a wonderful person. Where's the group for me? And he said, Barb, when are you gonna start it? So, how I really started to learn about helping partners was by stepping in, being a safe person and listening. So, in a lot of ways, when this happened to me, I was doing the, yeah, I'm grieving and I'm processing my pain and I'm trying to figure out how are we gonna work this out. But also on another level, I was trying to say, what is this? And why doesn't anyone else talk about or explain what it is I I know I'm experiencing, which is trauma? Where is that in this field? That's what led me to then go back and say, hey, let's do better.

Greg 12:58

I'm interested in going back to something you said a minute ago, exploring your own family of origin. The thing that didn't feel right about that to you, was it more that it was being asked, or that it was being asked first, as if to suggest that like this is this is the reason why you're having an issue, not the fact that your your partner betrayed you. I guess another way of saying it is is it that it was asked or is it when it was asked?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

When it was asked. Totally when it was asked. I I've done crisis intervention a long time before I even became a counselor. I was doing a volunteer, and you don't do that. When someone is in just a horrible shock and horrible pain, you listen to what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

And then later you might ask, but it's still, in my opinion, an inappropriate question at any time.

Stacey 13:50

Way down the road, maybe there when we're in a better place with the trauma, it's not quite as flared up or whatever.

Greg 13:57

I want safety and stabilization. Safety and stabilization, yeah.

Stacey 14:00

You might want to look at someone might want to look at because I do have trauma from my childhood. That that's appropriate, but yeah, yeah, but at the right time.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

And the older model assumed that there was always prior trauma, and that's why you picked this person. Do we have trauma? Most of us don't get out alive without some trauma, right? Of course, in a way, yeah, but that doesn't cause another trauma. Yeah, it may make some people a little more vulnerable, but it's still not their fault.

Greg 14:28

It's not a cookie cutter template that applies equally to everyone.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah, it is not. But that's that's how it was at that time. That lit a fire in me.

Greg 14:38

Yeah, I'm glad that it did.

Stacey 14:40

I'm glad it did, I was gonna say, yeah.

Greg 14:42

Well, think about some of the statements. Now, we've had people who have communicated to us that they have heard these things, and I don't know if they were spoken in these words specifically directly, or if it's just this is what was gleaned from what was said. I think in some cases it's exactly the words that were said. Things in in the old co-addict model that people would hear is you brought this on yourself, which you've already mentioned, or you're just as sick as he is.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Yeah.

Greg 15:11

And, you know, it's it's kind of like walking up to somebody who's just gotten run over by a truck and criticizing the way they were crossing the road, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

That's right. It's just, I don't understand why it was happening. Maybe they were thinking that would help the couples come back together. If you're both coming from a very broken place, you're gonna have more compassion, more empathy for each other. But it it misses the injury, it misses the injustice, it misses the secretiveness and the betrayal part, the lack of consent in a relationship when you don't know something is happening in that primary relationship. So it misses all of that. I think they were hoping that that was going to increase the likelihood that you're gonna pay attention to you and you're gonna pay attention to you, and so there's not gonna be this conflict going on. And they wanted to keep things calm because you know, if he starts to feel shame, he could act out again. So you have to be quiet and not speak about these things because then you're bringing shame on him, and now he's going to act out. So it puts so much of responsibility on the wounded partner who did not know.

Greg 16:20

Just keeps that responsibility there, right? Because the message is right there. If you would have been sexually available in the right way, this wouldn't have happened. And now that it has happened, you've got to do it right so that it won't happen again.

Stacey 16:32

Yeah. Well, there are a lot of people, I uh I don't know if I should say a lot, met several women I've talked to over the years. They were always excited about sex, they loved sex. We did not have that experience. I was just like, oh my goodness. Because I thought if I had been excited and and came to the bedroom better or did what XYZ that that that it wouldn't have happened. And then I start hearing these girls are like, I mean, I loved it. I never turned them down and ever rejected them. It just blew my mind. Yeah. But you you said too something about consent. And I I remember well into this process. Maybe I couldn't process it at the time. So my protective.

Greg 17:10

It was years into recovery.

Stacey 17:12

But I he brought out that point of just even agreeing to have sex all those years when I didn't have any of the information to help me and make that decision that I didn't have consent because you couldn't have given informed consent because you didn't have the information. Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

You just couldn't. And you know, the more people understand about compulsive sexual behavior, it's not about sex, it's about mood alteration, it's about a whole lot of other things, but it's not about that. But when someone is confused or doesn't understand what's happening, they want to put what they think is a quick fix on it. Well, just go do this or just forgive right away. Right. Of course, you have to forgive. Right. And when you forgive, then you're gonna come back together. Yeah. And so they're they're trying to put some band-aids on things that are gaping wounds that need, you know, long-term care and and and love and understanding and compassion for the level of pain that the person is in. I've seen way too many partners re re wounded or betrayed again when they go to seek help. Counselor or people who go to their communities of faith who don't understand, and then say these things like, we'll just have sex, or just forgive and put it away, and God's gonna take care of it. Right. Rather than addressing what's going on.

Greg 18:34

Let me turn to the one verse that I know talks about this in 1 Corinthians 7 and just figure out, you know, how to where can I push that in?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

And that could have been.

Greg 18:43

Exactly. Well, you said something before. The questions, well, what is this? Why isn't anyone talking about this? And so you decided to do something about it. Tell tell us what it was like in those early days of realizing that you were going to be a new voice with a new message.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

I don't think I realized I was going to be a new voice. Oh, gosh, for a long time. I remember, you know, deciding on what my research was going to be. And my question was, is this trauma or not? So I measured for trauma using a pretty well-known trauma instrument for diagnosis, and it was high levels of trauma. And it was like 71% of everyone met the criteria for post-traumatic stress. So it was big time trauma. It wasn't just, yeah, this was a hard thing. Right. So when I first, you know, do all that work and then you present at a conference. So I went to the AACC conference, American Association of Preaching Counselors. That was my first presentation of my material. And the room was as packed as I had ever seen a room at that kind of conference. And we had such strong response from people who were there that, you know, work in the field, but also a lot of people that had experienced this as well. And they were really positive. And so the next conference I went to and spoke on was at a conference for sex addiction professionals. All the big wigs were there, all the big names of people in the sex addiction field and people that were working with partners from a coaddiction model at that time. And I remember standing there and and I'm a little person, and I know I was shaking like crazy. And I, because they were right there. And so I put up a slide and I put the symptoms of co-addiction, and then I put the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. These are the same thing. So why are we calling it what it is not? It is trauma. And after that, that's when more clinicians and coaches came up and talked to me. And I realized that I was speaking something that some other people had thought, but now there was validation. So then that led us to starting to talk and chat. And then we formed an organization, association of partners of sex trauma specialists. And I was its first president.

Greg 21:19

When you say we, I'm interested in uh somebody who might be one of the wee's because before that, you and Marcia Means co-wrote your sexually addicted spouse. So was she one of the wee's you're referring to right now?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

She was not. She was not. At the time when we wrote our book, we kind of decided that she was going to be focusing on coaching and things like that. And I was going to be reaching out to the professional community. And so, so yeah, I think it was several years later that she and I got together again and did a conference seminar together or something.

Greg 21:54

I I'm also just curious about your connection, your association professionally, personally, whatever. With Carol the coach, Carol uh Jurgensen Sheets. I mentioned earlier that when we interviewed her for the show last year, she just spoke so well behind your back. And it just sounded like there's a great relationship there. How did that come to be?

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Kind of knew of her, heard of her, maybe met her at a conference. Um, and then, but she was invited to become a board member of Absats, and that's when we really got to know each other better when we were both on the board, found out that she, you know, lived pretty close, only about two hours away from me. So yeah, it's but yeah, she's a dear friend.

Greg 22:37

Well, when you mentioned AACC at the time that we're recording this, and and you know, Barbara, because when you and I talked on the phone last week, we were just getting to the AACC World Conference in Nashville to set up his exhibitors, and we sat through uh a track where we heard several people talking about betrayal trauma. We heard Sherry Keffer, we heard Leslie Vernick. And uh I just was uh realizing that this interview was coming up, I feel like they would probably say it certainly seemed like they they are standing on the shoulders of people like you who kind of blaze the trail. So it really was great to hear things that resonated so strongly with the the way that we've been building our recovery community for the last two years.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Oh, well, that's really cool. And I'm I'm glad you were able to go to the conference. That is, I was there so many times and just loved it. And you meet a lot of wonderful people.

Stacey 23:28

When I talk to women, it it is sometimes intimidating for me to be as like confident about things that I know, these kinds of things that I know they're going through. And so it's just always so refreshing and good to hear all of y'all talking about these things and like okay, that's the that's what I'm saying, and that's what I'm telling these women because I just, you know, it's just such a um sacred space, and I don't want to, I know I don't have enough power to ruin them, but I just don't want to do things that are more harmful. They've been through so much. So I'm grateful.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Well, a lot of those people that you have talked about have added to the field so much because they have their special area of interest. So, like Carol working with couples and early recovery, and there's so much that's happening and so much more. There are people that now looking at the family and how do we help the children in really healthy trauma-informed ways. So it's pretty amazing watching to see how we are coming to the aid of each other, right? Yeah, yeah.

Stacey 24:31

I'm sad about just when you mentioned the family, our children. We just did not know back in 2009, you know. I said, why weren't all of our kids in counseling?

Greg 24:41

Like, you know, and they've all two of them are in counseling now for various things, but yeah, it's including the realization that things affected them more deeply than they thought they didn't think. That they walked through.

Stacey 24:52

We we were he was on staff at our church, so it was public in that sense. And so the kids knew, but we didn't talk a lot, and they didn't really see me crying or anything. So it they weren't as aware as I think maybe in a good way with the help of counselors, they could have been. So we're just repairing those relationships, you know. Well, we didn't know what we didn't know. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

And now we're doing better.

Stacey 25:19

That's right.

Greg 25:20

Well, speaking of not knowing what we don't know, we're a recovery community. That's what awaken primarily is. For 10 years, we've been offering a space for people who are just realizing that they need some support for either unwanted or addictive sexual behavior or sexual betrayal trauma. And it's par for the course. People come in and they have no idea what they need, where they don't have their bearings, they just feel like they've, you know, fallen out of a truck going 80 miles an hour. And and so they need a safe place to land. And we try to provide them with that. But one of the things that is a pretty common question is, you know, what do I what do I do now? You know, what does the path forward look like? And we call ourselves a gospel-focused 12-step recovery community. And the 12-steps are pretty intuitive once you get to understand what they are for the recovering person. But 12 steps for a betrayed partner has always been a little bit more confusing and murky. And and I we were talking before we started recording just about how we'd love to kind of mull over that with you a little bit. I know that you mentioned some things in your sexually addicted spouse about 12 steps, but when when the whole concept of 12 steps comes up, a lot of it is, why do I need to take a look at that?

Stacey 26:44

My husband needs to be doing that, not me. It's just always tricky for me. Like some people love them and some people don't want to have anything to do with them. And so I just wondered like, is it a timing thing? Or I mean, how can the 12 steps be helpful for women who have been betrayed? What are some thoughts on the betrayed partner?

Greg 27:03

Before you answer, Barb, can I just add one thing? Because I think that's something that you've told me you've heard a lot is in even discussions about the 12, not even saying you need to do this, but just even talking about them. It's been, what are you saying that I've got the same problem my husband has? Right. Right. So kind of a uh on her heels, defensive type response that maybe tells me that maybe she's heard some of these messages we were talking about earlier, you know, the more the old co-addict model. So I we I think we were just interested in your perspective on a relationship between a partner in betrayal trauma recovery and the benefits or potential benefits of the 12-steps.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

I have not had personal experience in 12-step community. I have had a lot of clients who have, okay, and and you know, colleagues as well. And I think that if the 12-step process is trauma-informed, and if you're understanding that what you're working through through this process is the trauma that you experienced, not that there is anything that you did that caused this to happen or that you're equally as sick, which is what they used to say. I think that they can be helpful because there's a structure and it can be consistent. It, you know, it's well known, and so it's consistent from group to group, but it needs to be trauma-informed and understanding that you know you're not co-addicted. You've just had a life quake. And we want to help you find some way of having some firm ground to stand on. I think the most important part of a 12-step group or any group is the community. Yeah. So if the community is safe, and if you can ask questions, if you can share your story, what where I don't like hearing about 12-step is if it's so rigid and you really can't share very much.

SPEAKER_05 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Or ask questions of each other. So there's no dialogue in the group, I don't think that's helpful. That just keeps us more isolated.

Greg 29:12

Yeah, I think you're describing communities where the difference is are the 12-steps the end or are they the means to the end? Right. And and I think that the trauma-informed aspect of that probably is going to be a big change maker in how you approach it. When you were talking just now, it it reminded me of a conversation I had recently with somebody. And it's kind of the difference between hearing shame on you or hearing, well, of course. You know, when you're sharing your experience and your story and that compassionate trauma informed, well, of course, that's how you would show up in something like this. And we even, when we're working the 12 steps and we get to step six where we talk about became entirely ready for God to remove all these defects of character, people read it like that. And from a shame perspective, we just hear, I'm defective, I'm a screw up, I'm a I'm the problem. And it's a very shame-driven part, which is not helpful. And and we like to say, what are the ways in which I have defected from my character? You know, which is a much kinder, you know, God created me to connect with him and connect with others. And when I feel like I can't trust in my caregivers, and I've, if it is to be, it's up to me, then I'm gonna defect from the way I was made to live. And that's where things go wrong because now I'm I've gone sideways. And and just you can do the 12 steps so compassionately, if that's your orientation towards them.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Yeah. No, again, I've heard a lot of people that that are doing that and they're doing it really, really well. I know that in my years of doing partner groups, which is I I've I've done for a long time. I don't right now, but the the community is the most important part, and that it's safe, and that there's some kind of agreements within the group on how we're going to be with each other, and that that's what promotes the healing. It's the connection, the collaborating together, the leaning in and saying, Me too. Those kinds of processes are what provides healing. Because what happens, especially for the partner, when this you know discovery occurs, it's like she is thrust out of the rest of the world. And so put her in a place where she's with other people that were thrust out of the world and look, we're not alone now.

Stacey 31:34

Yes. Who was speaking on grief in the two different kinds? I think it was Sherry about like grief where you're you lose a loved one, you get all the casseroles, and every, you know, you can grieve together and you have a funeral. But with this, nobody's bringing you casseroles. Nobody can know. You know, it's just so different. And getting into the community, I mean, and I honestly was so pissed off that I had to connect with somebody I didn't know. There wasn't a group when I when we first started, but eventually there was a group. But like even to have to call somebody that I didn't know, I didn't want to talk to a sex addict's wife, but here I was, you know. But I didn't want to have that in my life. But what but when I did, it was a game changer. Just that they understood. Yeah. You didn't have to explain it to them. Exactly.

Greg 32:18

Yeah, the grief that's alone, it it just brought to mind uh a song that Jason Gray and Andy Gullahorn wrote. Oh, I know it's Death Without a Funeral. Yeah.

Stacey 32:28

Uh huh.

Greg 32:29

And it's exactly what y'all are talking about.

Stacey 32:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

So true. Yeah.

Greg 32:32

Yeah, it's exactly the same grief, but without the support.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah. Yeah. I did a seminar or I guess it was a retreat in the spring, and I was talking about grief and played that song for them. That's awesome. And then asked the group to process what did they hear that made sense to them, and it was a profound song.

Stacey 32:52

Maybe think about playing that song in my group and let us process it. Yeah. That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

It was a profound use of that song. And I see them every December, one way or another.

Stacey 33:05

We started a tradition of going to Behold the Lamb, and we see them there.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah, we're gonna be there again this December.

Greg 33:12

Are you coming to Nashville to see it? Oh, that's great. Well, maybe we'll be there this the same night.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah. It's the best place, it's the best experience.

Greg 33:21

Barb, I just this popped into my head just now. With you having spent the last basically quarter century, I think now even a little bit more than that, because it was before it was before the year 2000 that you were getting started, with a quarter of a century plus and seeing how this field has developed. What are you the most excited about right now that you see more recently that is happening that's that's making the field of betrayal trauma therapy and recovery even stronger or better?

SPEAKER_02 33:52

There's there's several answers to that. One is people now looking at different areas of specialty within this specialty, you know, like how do we help the children? How do we help extended family? Um, I'm now involved in how do we help our faith communities do better when they're walking, when people come in walking wounded and need a little bit of crisis support from their church. So I'm really happy about those things. You know, a couple of years ago I was doing uh a retreat, a Christian retreat for women. And somehow or another, I was talking to this young lady about back in the day when it was coediction, and she looked at me and she said, What's co addiction? And I said, You've never heard that word. That's awesome. And I was just like, Oh, good. Because here she she had already started a process of her own healing and recovering, and she hadn't come across that, and no one spoke that to her.

Greg 34:54

You don't have that baggage. Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

She doesn't have to try to figure that out, and how that doesn't make any sense to me. So for me, that was a milestone.

Greg 35:05

What about a sexually betrayed man when the roles are reversed from what would be the traditional presumption? We're friends with a therapist here in Birmingham, Alabama, who has gotten his CSAT and he has decided that his professional specialization is going to be working with sexually betrayed male partners. Excellent. And, you know, people he knows at ITAP are saying that's probably the most underserved part of the community that there is. So what's the this could probably be an entire episode, but if there are ways to high-level say what are the things that are common, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman? And then how is it different when you're a man who has been sexually betrayed by your partner?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah, I can do only top level because that's not my area specialty, but there are so many in the Epsets, we're having a lot of people come through the training because that's their passion and that's who they want to help. So really, really grateful for that. And there's research being done. So that's going to be really helpful. I think high level is when I have worked with male partners, they have not stayed in connection, you know, with a helper for very long. They know how to be mad, they know how to be angry about it, and they have a hard time dropping into the grief about it, and they want to fix it, make it better right away, don't we all? But but that that that seems to be, you know, what can I do to make this better? Also, we need research on this, but I think a lot of time for men, one thing I I think is different is women will try longer, harder to maintain the relationship. And I think this is Barb's guess. Primarily, that's because they're concerned about the impact on the children if the marriage fails or their beliefs about marriage, fearing how will I how will I take care of myself if I have been not the primary provider for our family. And so I think women stay a lot longer for those reasons. Um, that whereas for men, they don't necessarily feel that level of, well, I can't make it on my own. Whereas a woman might have concerns about that. So those are differences, but you know, the other differences we need to know about are cultural differences. So we need more research on that. Trying to get this information into other cultures where, especially for women, it is so much harder for them to speak what they need. The idea of a boundary saying no to something can be very difficult in some cultural areas and groups. So we have a lot more research to do in those areas. But yeah, the the male partner, you know, what I hear is I'm really tired of reading your book and having to change all the pronouns. Well, you should be tired of that. We should fix that. Someone needs to do that. So I know that there are men working on that.

Greg 38:05

Well, I'm curious, just to again, very high levels fine, because you've acknowledged that this is not like a heavy area of specialization for you personally, but I wonder sometimes, well, two things. When you were talking a minute ago, I was it the thought that popped into my head is I know stereotypically women have a higher threshold for pain than men do, whether that's childbirth, tattoos, whatever, but a higher physical threshold. But I wonder also if women tend, and I'm not trying to be misogynistic or you know, do uh conform to gender stereotypes, but I wonder, in what I'm meaning to be a complimentary thing, if women have a higher pain threshold emotionally than men do, and and if that could be contributing to to their staying. So that's one thing. Uh, and maybe you pause and just see if is there anything to that?

SPEAKER_02 38:54

I I don't know. I think that it's a wonderful research question. It really is, to figure out are there some characteristics, female characteristics that might be different from males that prolong, you know, staying in a hard situation?

Greg 39:11

Well, the other question I had was this. I have had conversations with a few men who have experienced sexual betrayal from I mean, I'm thinking about one about just two or three months ago. We were sitting at lunch, and he was just had so many conflicting thoughts and feelings because he had also done sexually betraying behavior himself. And so I know that there is sometimes this sentiment of I don't get to grieve, I don't get to be upset because I'm guilty of it too. Do you do you think that that's an element that maybe gets in the way of men getting the kind of help and support that they would need in this situation?

SPEAKER_02 39:49

It certainly can be, and it certainly can make it uh complicated for the couple, you know, be if both people have been betrayed in one way or another, or or if someone has unconfessed behaviors and now this is coming up, and I'm really upset, but oh no, you don't know that I did whatever, that would complicate, you know, getting honest and taking steps to take good care of yourself when you're carrying guilt. So that'd be complicated for sure.

Greg 40:16

What I keep hearing you alluding to or saying outright is those would be really, really helpful things to do some more research on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah. And I get so excited every time I I have contact with someone who's, you know, they're in their master's program or they're starting a doctorate and they're they're having ideas around what they want to research in this field. That's just so good.

Greg 40:36

I feel like we're never going to run out of new information, new perspective, new nuance in this, and and to have people who are committed to just learning about all this so that we can provide more help and hope and resources for people who are going through, like you said, legitimate post-traumatic stress. And and uh just you naming that and that over 70% of betrayed partners experience and exhibit that, I think can be such a freeing thing from the shame of like or feeling like I'm going crazy or there's something wrong with me. Yeah. And so to have people who are continuing the work standing on your shoulders is really encouraging.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

It is really encouraging. My my biggest concern right now is how normalized sexual behaviors are in terms of experimentation, and that I I I feel for young couples who don't have the hope of having a sense of feeling, a level of innocence in their relationship.

SPEAKER_05 41:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Because they are being exposed to so many things so young. So young, yeah. So I wonder what that's going to be like. So I want to see what research is going to be done in terms of differences between generations.

Greg 41:56

Boy, let it happen.

Stacey 41:58

Yeah.

Greg 41:59

Barb, we can't thank you enough for spending an hour talking to us.

Stacey 42:03

Just fast. My gosh.

Greg 42:05

I know it's been almost an hour.

Stacey 42:07

Almost. Almost. We got a little bit of a little bit more.

Greg 42:09

We had a little audio hiccup at first, but we we ironed it out. But uh, like uh uh legitimately, we want to thank you. I mean, I think that it's not an overstatement to say that we wouldn't be where we are without you and people like you who had done this work. I mean, obviously we could be, because God could have done it a different way, but the way that he did it, it was through your work and you know, work of other people who were doing it when nobody else was.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

And you know what? I believe in redemption. And that no matter what, God has a way of redeeming the things that happen. That's right. He doesn't fail at that. That's right.

Stacey 42:48

That's why I'm watching several people in our community going through divorce, and this is not the story they wanted. They they want the redemption story in their marriage. But you know, watching them continue to heal and do the work for themselves, it's just it's beautiful, and it it just brings me to tears because this one friend is coming to life again. I'd like to say she just went dark for a while, and nothing, she's a one on the Enneagram, and nothing she did should just like was powerful. If you want to have this result, then do this. And it's like none of it worked, and she just kept slogging through and she's coming back, you know, and um, so it's just beautiful. It's yeah, hard, but um, she God does heal. Um, it's just it looks different than we want sometimes.

Greg 43:33

Well, thanks for helping teach us and others like us how to have compassionate community. We really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Oh, and that's thank you so much for doing it, stepping into that role and providing safe spaces.

Greg 43:47

Well, God bless you.

Stacey 43:53

Anyway like, yeah, this is right, you're doing the right thing.

Greg 43:57

Thanks for being with us today.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Oh, you're welcome.

Stacey 44:00

Maybe we'll run into you at a conference sometime.

Greg 44:02

Or at the rhyme it.

Stacey 44:02

Or at the rhymes. Or at the rhyme it. It could be at the rhyme. That would be awesome. Sounds great.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Take care.

Stacey 44:08

Take care.