44 | Kelly Bourque: Finding Your Way Back

When couples in conflict feel a million miles apart, are they? Are the areas of "stuckness" as insurmountable as it sometimes feels?

KELLY BOURQUE, is a therapist who specializes in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a modality of counseling that focuses on attachment science and how it shows up in romantic relationships. Kelly is the founder of Red Therapy Group in Franklin TN. EFT is a modality based in attachment theory, and is helpful in allowing couples to identify unhealthy patterns in their relationships. Patterns such as the "push/pull" or "pursuer/withdrawer" dynamic, or with anxious/avoidant attachment styles.

Kelly talks about how EFT has been invaluable in helping couples see that despite the surface conflict, they usually desire the same things. It can help them get out of old, unhelpful cycles and find their way back to each other more healthily and authentically.

#kellybourque #redtherapygroup #emotionallyfocusedtherapy #efttherapy #efct #efit #suejohnson #holdmetight #createdforconnection #addiction #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Free consultation for 3-day intensives in Franklin, TN. Click here

Red Therapy Group website (traditional therapy for TN residents)

Kelly's book I Have Feelings About This

Kelly's video series for betrayal trauma recovery

Find an EFT therapist (https://iceeft.com/)

Transcript

Greg 0:00

We were we were in Franklin not too long ago and we were walking downtown and every time I'm walking past the parking deck or Meredith's, I I look up at that window, you know, see if that little plant is there.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

So I'm probably in there.

Greg 0:14

Yeah. I don't know how thick or thin the separating like in the ceiling is. Do you ever get like wafts of what they're baking down there underneath you?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Oh yeah. Yes. All the time. It's amazing.

Greg 0:28

Oh, see. It's so great. That would make me want to go to work, but it would also really not be good for me.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

You love the car. I know. I know. I have to be disciplined.

Announcer 0:40

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:52

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. This is Greg here with Stacy today.

Stacey 0:57

Hello.

Greg 0:58

And this is episode 44. It's called Finding Your Way Back.

Stacey 1:05

If y'all could just see this, just sitting here in my channel.

Greg 1:09

And your chair just starts spitting.

Stacey 1:11

Not finding its way back. Okay.

Greg 1:14

Let's try that again. Today is episode 44. It's called Finding Your Way Back. And our guest is Kelly Burke. We wanted to do this conversation together. Hun, you want to tell them why?

Stacey 1:26

Yeah, we did an intensive two years ago. And Kelly was our therapist, and it was amazing. I tell people it was me, you, and her, knee to knee, practically for three days.

Greg 1:40

It was quite intimate.

Stacey 1:42

But I don't want to the way I say this, it sounds like, are you kidding me? The the training that they have gone through to be able to do this. It's like, how did you get what you got out of us?

Jenna Riemersma 1:53

Yeah.

Stacey 1:54

By like I think a lot of it is noticing what's going on and noticing faces and movements and all of that. But it was amazing to me. Like because it didn't feel, I guess what I'm saying is it didn't feel like we were being therapized or doing all these things. It was just we were talking and in all of that, I mean, there was just so much.

Greg 2:13

Yeah. In the world in which we operate, man, we get some people who are in a bad place in their relationship. And so often when they try to do couples work, they can say, well, it's this. And if this person would just do that, or if he would do that, or if she would do that, we would be fine. And when you work with an EFT therapist like Kelly, who will slow things down and realize that what is presenting on the surface is very rarely anything more than just a fraction of what's actually going on. It's always what's underneath. And and so the things that keep couples from connecting are often just what we would call the weeds or the noise, not really what this is about because what it is about often is stuff that we've been carrying that may have even preceded the relationship. Right, right. We talked in the conversation with Kelly about how so often it can be comforting to hear from your EFT therapist. It really sounds like you guys want the same thing. Yeah. Because it doesn't always feel like that.

Stacey 3:13

No, I would not have I wouldn't have challenged her. But if she had said that from the beginning, I probably wouldn't have been able to see at all what she was meaning.

Greg 3:22

Well, like because he might think, Well, I want her to quit nagging me. And she might think, Well, I want him to quit doing things that hurt me.

Stacey 3:30

Right.

Greg 3:30

Well, what they both want is for the things that are getting in the way of connection to not be in the way. What they both want is to connect with each other.

Stacey 3:37

Connect and feel safe with each other.

Greg 3:38

And but you've got to go down two or three levels. And if you're staying on the surface, you're you're not addressing the deeper things that's really going on.

Stacey 3:46

We don't have like regular sessions anymore, but we definitely can reach out at any point, but we get stuck and we just need somebody else because when we're with that therapist and we're sharing our perspectives, I don't know from I know for me, it's I'm not quite as defensive and I can hear better because it's not just me and you.

Greg 4:05

Well, and and I think coming out of the intensive and the ongoing continuing therapy, we've learned skills to show up when it's just the two of us, more like we show up when there's a third person in the room. You kind of start off you're on your best behavior when your therapist is there with you. But but we I think have both gotten less defensive, less self-protective, more trusting. Yeah. That we both are committed to mutual good and and to finding our way back to each other, you know, to quote the title. So this is a really cool conversation, and and Kelly's just so passionate about what she what she does. They've built their entire practice around this one modality. If you listen to this conversation and if you really resonate with the way it's described and want to find out more, there are going to be some links in the show notes on how you can connect to Red Therapy Group, to uh kind of a worldwide directory of EFT therapists, if this is something you want to check out. So, yeah, we hope that it'll be encouraging and that it will give you hope. That's what Kelly said she wanted, and that's what we want. And so we hope that you will enjoy listening to episode 44 with Kelly Burke. It's called Finding Your Way Back, and it starts right now. Uh I'm just gonna jump right in and let everybody know that we're talking to Kelly Burke today. Kelly, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Thank you. I'm really, really excited to just be talking with you. I love the name of your podcast. Like that's very aligned with my work. What do we really want? I just yeah, I love that.

Greg 5:41

Underneath every problematic behavior, I've found is a really good desire. Yeah, and it's always some form of connection, right? I mean, that's what we were made for.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

That's exactly right. You're speaking my language right now.

Greg 5:53

Yeah, well, so since we're talking about the title of or the name of the show and how much you like it, let me just ask you, Kelly, what do you really want out of the conversation we're about to have?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

You know, I was thinking about that because you did you did send me that question ahead of time. So I had a little bit of a question.

Jenna Riemersma 6:09

We don't like to spring it on people.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, no, I appreciate that too. But I was thinking about, you know, that quote, people don't necessarily remember what you say, but they remember how they feel when they're with you. And and that's sort of what you need to pay attention to as far as like how to be. And I really want your listeners to feel a lot of hope after our conversation with my words, right? From my clinical expertise and my experience as a therapist and what I know about bonding science, about the fact that we all just really want connection, even if we're a little farther away from that awareness, that that really is at the core of all of us. We need it, we're wired that way. Um, but I just hope people will feel really hopeful. So, yeah, that's what I want is for everyone to feel like, okay, I'm not crazy or messed up. I'm I make sense and there is hope.

Greg 7:11

So I would make up a story from that because you talked about people, we all need that, but we don't always have the words or know that that's what we need. But because it's something that we're all looking for, and I think a lot of people do probably come into working with a therapist like you thinking that they're all screwed up. But when you're able to help them find a language, I bet you you've seen so many times people just light up. It's like that's it. Yeah. You know, it's like Eureka.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yes. I mean, honestly, it just happened this week. I had an intensive and sweet, sweet couple, and the female partner looked at me with tears in her eyes and she said, I really thought I was just broken. I thought I was the problem, I was messed up. I had no idea what I really needed or what was really happening. It was kind of this mixture of grief, relief, hope. I mean, it was, and and that is, yes, that happens all the time. All the time. People assume that the problem is them, like sort of this pathological lens. I am broken, right? I am something that needs to be fixed. And, you know, people kind of are like, okay, they're okay with that. Like, just if if I can figure out how I'm broken and what I need to do to fix, then maybe that's some sense of control or like, you know, I can do something. So I think people do are on kind of a hunt for that. Like, what what's how do I fix myself? I what's the problem in me and how do I fix it? You know, our our quote unquote bad behaviors do stem from good longings and understandable fears. And so when we can connect with that, then we're not as focused on what we're doing saying wrong. What are you know what I'm saying? Like it's now we can we're in the channel of I call it the attachment channel, right? And this is like this is you, this is at the core of you, and it's at the core of everybody.

Jenna Riemersma 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

So yeah, you're right. Back to what you were saying. Yes, people kind of come to that realization all the time. And it's really rewarding for me to see that.

Greg 9:41

Yeah, yeah. Well, before we get too much more into the details of a lot of your career work on, you know, studying romantic adult attachment, how that affects us and how we show up in our relationships. I'd love for our listeners to be able to just get to know you a little bit. You you started a therapy practice in Middle Tennessee called Red Therapy Group, but and I'd love to hear about that, but even anything you just want to share personally, just who you are and you know what your life and family are like, how you came to being a therapist, any anything you want to share. We just love for people to get to know you.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, that's right. I started Red Therapy Group, which is a group practice, and we are an EFT, which stands for emotionally focused therapy specific practice. So we are really one of a kind. There's, I don't know of any other group practice that only does EFT. And I'm proud of that. It's it's we all nerd out together all the time because we're very excited about bonding science. And so, kind of what we were just talking about the assumption that we're hardwired for connection and that our longing and our need is good. That's all EFT. And so we have a specific way of helping people get in touch with that. But before that, I was a solo practitioner for I don't know, over a decade. And then before that, I was in agency work. So I've been at this for almost 20 years. I can always remember, I have to think about the ages of my kids and how like that's my marker. Like, okay, I was, you know, I was pregnant with my oldest when I got license, you know, and then I'm like, I started my my solo practice when my middle was born. You know, I just like that's kind of how I have to think about it because I can't remember actual dates. But yeah, I've been at this for a really long time and I've been working in that attachment sort of lane, mostly couples work, but in the very beginning of my career, it was where I worked with kids and families, and yeah, fun fact about me. And then when I discovered EFT at the time, it was only a modality for couples. And so because I fell in love with it, I was like, guess I'm working with couples now. So that was sort of my switch. Now you can get trained in EFT to work with both, well, all three individual couples and families. But yeah, I've just I have not stopped being passionate about it. It's it doesn't get old. I don't, I mean, it's just so rewarding. And then it, and then, you know, in terms of my personal life, it has actually really made an impact on me personally. I have three kids, teen two teenagers and uh one in fifth grade. So I'm like almost there with getting out of that actual kid stage, little kid, big kid stage, married to the love of my life. We've done a lot of our own work. We've been married for he always knows better than I do. We're coming up on 21 years. I think we just had 20. So, and we've we've had our own EFT couples work, we've both done our own EFT individual work, it's transformed everything. It changes the way I parent, it changes obviously our relationship, it changes how I see the world. I mean, it is like, and if you talk to EFT therapists, that is something that you'll hear that again and again and again. Like this model changed me professionally and personally. So we're all in. Does that make sense? Like, I think that's part of the draw is I'm human right along with you. So I have these by learning the model, it kind of requires me to get in touch with my own attachment longings and fears. I mean, I just don't think you can actually do it without facing that yourself in that way. Yeah. So that's me in a very large nutshell.

Stacey 14:10

That's great.

Greg 14:10

Yeah. So EFT, emotionally focused therapy. Uh when you say that you're you're a single focus practice, you know, your your group, you, you, you guys focus on EFT and EFT only. In the years that we've been doing this, have become familiar with so many wonderful, effective, powerful therapeutic modalities. And so many of them are great. You know, there's some people who are masters in IFS, you know, internal family systems, and and there's there's so many others. I'm not going to just try to start naming them, but yeah, but I think, you know, there's a there's a value in saying if you want IFS, that's great. And there's some people who that's all that they do, but we do this, and and so you know, that's that's kind of our jam. That's what I hear you saying.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

That's exactly right. And I think that that has been, you know, intentional, just like you, right? And I I really love what you're saying about people who are gaining from your resources, you know, they really probably are drawn to you because it's very specific. It speaks to them very specifically. And so there is so much safety and trust. And also that, you know, there is a temptation, right? Like if you're doing this really well, like, okay, you can maybe be all things to all people, and that just never really works out. It's it's you know, it's it gets confusing. Who are you actually? What are you about? Like, what can we expect? So, yeah, I mean, I think we are similar in that way, that it's very clear what we do. And yes, we can use EFT in lots of different contexts. Yeah, and so that's helpful to know. I think we're we're mainly known as a couples practice, and EFT is also known as a couples modality, but actually we do a lot of EFIT, emotionally focused individual therapy, and we deal with a lot of we call it presenting issues. So, you know, we do have a lot of people who are struggling with addiction and the across the spectrum. And EFT can be really powerful working with addiction. And so that's really exciting, but we we know how to do it within that model. We have people that we refer to, you know, that maybe are in a different place in their journey for addiction, or we they come alongside us, right? So maybe they're more focused on just the sobriety aspect, whereas we're kind of more focused on the deep dive, get at the root of it aspect. So it's it's like we're both, yeah, we both want to get our get these clients to the same place, but maybe we're in different parts of the journey or we're approaching it in a very different kind of way. I don't know if that makes sense.

Greg 17:12

Yeah, no, it does.

Stacey 17:13

I got a question just real quick. I don't think it has to be a long answer, but do people coming to y'all, can they be wherever on that where you would potentially say this isn't a good time for, I don't know how you would say it tactfully, but like for you to be doing this type of work or is does it fit anybody at any point?

SPEAKER_01 17:32

We're always gonna do a thorough assessment with anyone. So, and we can make recommendations. So sure, we but I think a thorough assessment is really important because you need help in making those decisions, right? Like, where are you actually? What is the problem? How do we understand it? And what does it need? And so, yeah, there are people that maybe it's not appropriate to do couples work just yet. It's like eventually, but maybe not now. Or maybe it's yes, we can do this piece, but in order to do this piece, you'll also need addictions-focused therapy to get you sober. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And so it might be that we can we can collaborate, we can think outside the box, we can get creative, but we first have to really listen to the client, you know, and so sometimes that's a consult. We'll do those at no cost, other times it's you know, it's in those first couple sessions and that it there just becomes there's more clarity just by having those good assessment type of conversations. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I don't think we would ever turn anyone away too quickly, you know. Like if I think some people worry, like, am I beyond help? No, you're there is hope, truly. And there are we that's the other thing, is we're very well connected. So there are so many resources, but it's overwhelming. Yeah, right.

Jenna Riemersma 19:08

Right?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

It's really overwhelming. I mean, you try to find how I can get help with blah, blah, blah. You'll get lots of contradicting answers. You'll get stuff that feels like I don't know if I can trust that. I mean, it's overwhelming. So that's part of our job, too, is to kind of help connect you with what we've learned to trust. Yeah. I mean, you're a place that we trust, so we could send people your way. You know, it's like, hey, this exists. Did you know? No, I didn't know. Oh my gosh.

Greg 19:38

That's that's yeah, and I think that's so important. And while we're still on the thread that started with specificity versus being more general, like I think that there's so much value in like we were talked about earlier, finding your lane and pretty much staying in it, but also aligning with people who are in in other lanes, just because you know, you don't you don't ever know what's gonna best resonate with a person at the at the spot where you're meeting them. That's why it reminded me of a book that I read about a year ago by David Epstein called Range, and it was all about being a generalist versus being a specialist. And how, you know, we we basically live in a world that that says being the best at one thing is the best, but he gives a lot of evidence that being kind of good at a whole bunch of stuff may be functionally better for a lot of people. And I'm even kind of applying that to what we're talking about based on where we are in the sphere of the people that we're working with, because you guys and and us will be working with some of the same people, but at different phases. And so somebody in our position, I found it really helpful to come to understand what EFT is about, what IFS is about, what NARM is about, what some of these other modalities are. Right. So that as I'm meeting a lot of people who it's just hit the fan, you know, they're just in that crater or crisis spot. And I'm trying to think of with where you are, like this kind of seems you might want to check this out, and then selling them to a place that is very specialized because it's it's such a confusing, chaotic time. They don't need confusing things, you know, entering into their therapeutic process. So I can see the value in some people being more generalized, but being aligned and connected to people who are very specific.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah. No, I think I've read something similar that the world needs both. Right. And and the generalists and the specialists need to talk to each other. Right.

Stacey 21:41

It is for us for sure, because we're not therapists and to know people like y'all that we can refer and let y'all kind of help with that.

Greg 21:49

Well, I'd like to give our listeners a kind of a a nitty-gritty crash course in what they could expect if they were to pursue EFT therapy. So I'd love To get you to tell us in a minute about its foundations, maybe talk about Sue Johnson. I mean, is it is it fair to say she was the founder or the inventor of EFT therapy? And she just passed away in the past year. Yeah. So we'll let you talk about Sue and what EFT's focus is. But then I also want to get you to talk about the intensives that you offer. And I'll just say this we invited Kelly on to the show because we got to know Kelly a couple of years ago. And she can't say this because of therapeutic ethics and confidentiality.

Stacey 22:36

She will neither confirm nor deny.

Greg 22:53

Like nothing was quote unquote wrong, but that was kind of part of it. And that's that's some of what was so helpful for us when we did our intensive because we came to realize that like there are dynamics in couples that show up. And you know, there's one that that realizes that, hey, there's something and that was you, hun, that could be better, right? That just doesn't feel quite there. And you know, I was the one that was just like, hey, if there's nothing wrong, then we're good. You know, if there's nothing obviously bad, then why do we need to be working on this? And it's not, you know, it's not just as simple as one person's right and one person's wrong, but it's just how we're missing each other. And there were just some mind-blowing epiphanies that both of us had working with you. And so I know you're gonna speak more generally about what happens when you work with a couple, but we just want our listeners to know we are one of those couples.

Stacey 23:46

And if you've been listening, I'm sure you've heard if you've been listening to our podcast, I feel like we talk about it all the time. We were in a little bit of a crisis because of a specific situation we were working through, but in general, we weren't like at each other's throats.

Greg 24:00

Yeah, we we were we need help. We were safe and secure enough in our relationship to where the crisis, which I uh maybe I don't know if it was a crisis, it felt like one, that that that flared up. We knew it wasn't gonna destroy us. We didn't feel like the relationship was at risk, but we the tools that we had at that time, we were finding they were not enough to to resolve it.

Stacey 24:23

I think we were 15 years into our recovery, and we were about 14 and a half years into recovery.

Greg 24:30

I'd been sober that whole time, and I'm like, wow, there are some things that were flaring up for you, and I didn't understand them. You know, so my therapist told me about you, and and it's been a little over two years. And so because it was so helpful, and we've used the phrase life-changing for us, we just wanted other people to know about it because I know that there are couples listening to this where they kind of look at their marriage and it's almost like that Jack Nicholson quote where he's leaving the therapist's waiting room and he just turns back and looks at everybody sitting there and goes, What if this is as good as it gets? And they all just have this defeated look on their face, and then he just walks out and closes the door. I don't want any couple to just settle and say, Well, I guess this is as good as it gets. So how can EFT help with that?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, so I'm I'm thinking about the way that you describe your dynamic. It is so human. And I think about all the couples that I have worked with, they would maybe have a similar description, honestly. You know, what you're describing is actually a real typical pursuer-withdrawer dynamic where the pursuer is more anxiously attached and the withdrawal is more avoidantly attached. And, you know, the metaphor I like to use is imagine that you have headphones on your heart, right? And some of us, when we hear the music of attachment or relationship, right? This matters, something's happening. It could be like a threatening sound, or it could just be any kind of sound. Pursuers will want to turn the volume up. Let me figure that out, let's let's get resolution, let me go after that, let me ask questions, let me, you know, the motivation is the motivation is is to get connection, really, um, or to feel closer. But sometimes the behavior of turning the volume up will actually um rob them of the very thing that they're really looking for. But it's a reaction, right? So withdrawers have headphones on their heart too, and they turn the volume down. And so they are like, I think I hear that, but I'm good. It's okay. We're fine. Like it's actually better, but the motivation is still it's more about peace, harmony, safety, security, right? Which is ultimately connection. So a withdrawal doesn't really want to rock the boat, doesn't want to um make things worse. It's actually trying to protect the relationship, if you think about it. A pursuer usually is wanting to go for more in the relationship. A withdrawal is like, oh, if we do that, it might actually make it worse. So there's this push-pull that is very common really in all relationships. That's part of the physics of any love relationship. You know, the dance might look different depending on the couple. So some couples, okay, so if we're keeping with maybe music metaphors like a dance floor, that both partners are not really on the dance floor, right? So maybe they're both turning the volume down. However, one will eventually it'll get bad enough or feel distant enough that one will eventually pursue. So there really ends up being somebody's more the pursuer, somebody's more the withdrawer. And then very rarely do you have two people who are turning the volume up. It does happen, but usually somebody's like, well, we gotta calm that down, right? And so yeah, it there's not a better or a worse, there's not a there's it's just what you do when you feel threat. It and we call that the cycle. The problem isn't actually the cycle. This is we have to see this as I call it the price of love. If you're trying to be close to anybody at all, and you are a human and you happen to make Dela, which you know is the same part of your brain that needs to be able to run away from a tiger, right? Like you're gonna respond to threat. You just are. You can't you can't not do that. It it means you're human, it means it matters, you know, and and it is for safety. Sometimes you actually need to get out of a relationship. But what happens is with couples who they want to be together and they do love each other, but they get stuck in a cycle. So they get so it's it's not that there is one, it's just that they don't really have effective repair. So there's ebb and flow to connection, right? There's disconnection, connection, which you could also see that as rupture and repair. And if there's never really effective repair, then you end up your relationship, sort of erodes. It's you lose trust, you lose that lightness and playfulness, and and then just the intimacy and the closeness. You know, that's kind of the consequence of not being able to rupture and repair.

Greg 30:10

So I have a question about that. You're you've been describing people who experience rupture but don't learn how to repair. I think there also are couples that are so afraid of conflict that they will avoid rupture at all costs, which exactly, I mean, that isn't really avoiding rupture. It's just kind of papering over a hole in the wall, and there's still rupture, but if we're never acknowledging it, yeah. What would you say to people? Because I'm sure that you encounter people who feel like rupture in and of itself is a problem. How do you help them see that rupture is not a problem? It's actually something that's present in every healthy relationship. Rupture without repair is the problem. How do you help people see that something they've always seen is conflict is bad, that it's not really bad? That's only half the story.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

I mean, that's like easy to understand cognitively. Like I think most people would probably agree, right? It's it's healthy for couples, you know, to fight. Like it means that you're alive and you know, there's passion and it's more how you fight or blah, blah, blah. Like I think everybody can agree with that. But for for people who are really afraid, even if they understand it, when rubber meets the road and in the heat of the moment, it's terrifying to get that look on your partner's face of disapproval, or you know, maybe you're not available, you're not here, your body is here, but you're not really looking at me. You know, those signs of uh oh, we're not okay, are so terrifying. And attachment science would really validate that. Why is it terrifying? Because we actually need to know that we matter and that we can if that our person, you know, if we need them, they're there. It doesn't mean like constant conversation, it just means if I really need something, I can reach and get a response. Like that's just kind of basic attachment, right? So when we get the signals that, uh-oh, maybe not, and it's so terrifying and how bad that feels, what we actually do, and this is the whole thing that you're talking about, Greg, with how it sort of like it doesn't actually work, but we end up just trying to avoid those feelings. So you could do that by placating or dishonesty or being polite and nice. I mean, you could do this, these kind of avoidant behaviors might look okay on the surface.

Greg 33:06

But underneath it, I mean, things like resentment are gonna be building because you're not showing up and you're not showing up authentically.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

And no, and and your nervous system picks up on that. People pick up on that, and eventually it's it's it does come out, right? And you can only do that for so long. And so either it comes out in a big fight, right? Where it's like you're holding back, and so you're ending up maybe operating in a way that doesn't actually feel congruent to you, or you're not feeling really known by your partner because why you're not showing yourself, right? Because you're afraid of da-da-da. So it's just this, and this is exactly what we help couples with. We validate, yes, this makes sense. You're not so many people do this, and you'll still do it, but what does it mean to not be caught in it? Yeah, right.

Greg 33:58

So I want to pause because I and I want to get practical and talk about what it was like for us because what you've been explaining and unpacking for the last couple of minutes, the way that showed up, and or one of the ways that it showed up in our relationship was I came to realize how much of a pattern I had of trying to keep the cart from getting shaky. Because if I was ever feeling something strongly that felt challenging, I would often, well, I had gotten into the habit of just not sharing that with Stacy because when I was shaky, then she got afraid. And now I'm like, okay, so rather than holding or being with me in what I just shared, now I'm having to take care of you. And that felt exhausting. And so I thought, well, I'm efficient, so I'll just not bring it up, you know? And so then there would be times that I did need to talk or wanted to talk. And and you know, I had I have people in my life that I would talk to, but it's not the same as being able to talk to my partner about that. So I felt like there is this one avenue that I really wanted to have that I didn't have. Now, I didn't have those words that clearly for it, but I think I did have some sadness and maybe even some low-grade resentment that like I would really love for you to be able to just be with me in that. But then we came to understand, like, you didn't have the resilience for that because I wasn't uh giving you the chance to build it, you know.

Stacey 35:32

When you finally started talking, it was like, wait, what? What's what's wrong? What what's what's happening? You're supposed to be the one that's got it all together or whatever. But and I was thinking about when you were talking about avoiding placating and all, and I can tend to do that too, but I think when I get scared, I turn it up because actually that freaking out and anxiety and looking for you to be sure that you're there and you're not leaving me keeps me from feeling and knowing what actually is going on in me. So even though I'm loud and it's not pretty, nobody would think it was great. Like, what is wrong with you? It's doing something, not great, but I think like if I don't do this, he's not going to hear me.

Greg 36:17

Is that what Sue called the protest polka in Hold Me Tight?

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah, she calls it, yeah, she calls it the protest. That's in her book, Hold Me Tight. And I'm glad you brought her up because I was thinking, I did, I appreciated you mentioning her name, setting up this conversation, this part of the conversation, because it really is her legacy. I'm so grateful. She was the first to bring attachment theory to adult romantic attachment in a model. She was the first to do that.

Greg 36:49

So it's because everybody understands who understands attachment theory understands how critical it is in the first formative years of life.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Right.

Greg 36:59

But then we don't apply it to relationships later in life. And she did.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

She did. And it's a couple's model that goes beyond behavior. So the way that you were talking about your dynamic and your relationship is so exciting because you are very aware of not only your pattern, but some of those deeper longings and fears underneath it. And once you can connect there, that's a game changer. It really is. And so that's what Sue Johnson did is she developed this model that there's a lot of structure to it. It's very, we have a very specific map. We know exactly where we're going and how to get there. But we also have this flexibility to attune to each couple and to really be with them as they get underneath those patterns and those more tender parts where they can actually bond. So it's the first, I think, couples model that is not actually focused on behavior change and how to talk to each other, how to be, you know, like communicate better, da-da-da-da. Like it's it goes way deeper than that. And it's because of this attachment science, right? That is that is the bedrock of this whole model. And also how to work with emotion.

Greg 38:29

I think what you said about not being a behavior-driven model is so important because people who hear a phrase like that may not know how that flesh out in a couple's therapy session. And one of the ways that I've heard so many times that it does is when a couple's in therapy and one partner is is, you know, kind of voicing their complaint, you know, I just wish that she would do this. And like the therapist will look at her and say, Well, would you be willing to do that? Well, that's not that's not what we want. You know, yeah. That's kind of colluding with one with one partner's perspective and assuming that that's really what's going on. And and one of the things that we experienced was there was no tube ganging up on one. I mean, it was very I mean, intimate is the word that comes to mind because we're just sitting there and it's almost like knees to knees to knees.

Stacey 39:23

That's what I tell everybody. It was me, Greg, and Kelly, knee to knee, for three days.

Greg 39:27

And the things that kept coming up. So the things that I wrote down that we heard, if if we heard them once, I we probably heard them 50 times. Is that makes so much sense? I just want to slow down for a minute. Let's slow things down.

Stacey 39:42

Slow things down.

Greg 39:43

And it sounds to me like you both want the same thing. That was a little surprising because when you're in heavy conflict, it seems like the exact opposite, like you don't want the same thing. And so hearing those over and over again and just also in the slowing down, so many invitations to okay, that sounds important. Would you how would you feel about turning to Stacy and saying that to her? And how would you feel about turning to Greg and saying that?

Stacey 40:12

Not my favorite exercise in the in the process. I always said something about it when we had to do it. But I remember too how many times when Greg was sharing, or I was sharing, either one, you would go to the other person and say, How I forget exactly how you worded it, but how does that how are you doing? How are you feeling? Let's I want to check in with you. And I remember a couple of specific times where it was like he was mad. He was getting in touch with some anger, and then you checked in with me, and I was like, I have complete, I feel everything in my like chest and stomach, and I had nothing. It was like peace. And he started crying because it like he didn't uh experience getting angry and me being at peace. But it was because we had we had a third party.

Greg 41:00

I needed to be able to be raw and have you be able to handle it. And that was like an experience of seeing you handle it.

Stacey 41:08

Yeah, and then the reverse for me, it was you understanding maybe for the first time, or those aha you talked about, you had so many aha's, and he would put into words, and I would start crying, and you'd ask me, and it's like I've that's that fits exactly what I was feeling, but I didn't have the words for it, and so it was really cool to see uh just so much get unpacked, but we never really resolved the actual conflict. Like we came in the first time. I mean, the solution about the situation who said what when and who was right and who was wrong. We never got to that, and I was kind of like, but wait, but then I realized it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Um, it's not a bad I mean it matters, but like it doesn't matter who was right or wrong or who said what the best way.

Greg 41:52

The things we thought mattered and we needed to get an answer to, we became far less important. And you're smiling, Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Well, you're just yes, of course I am. You're describing so many couples, you know, and I know your listeners are gonna be so grateful to hear this kind of the real experience of this is how I sort of conceptualize it in my head is this is the benefit of EFT, is it is literally slowing down what's happening inside of that cycle. So the cycle has lots of really good data. It it's it's you, you know, couples are actually trying to communicate something, but because they're scared and because they're reactive, they can't, it doesn't come across. It ends up, you know, actually pushing the other partner away. And then what they do with that pushes the you know, reinforces the other partners' fears. And it's just like it just it's such a trap. But when you can really slow it down, those are actually new conversations, and they bond couples. And I think when couples do that again and again and again, it does start to click like, oh, you know, this is where it's at, like this is what this is what really matters, and this is and and just the experience of being able to to tune in to to those things that are driving that, and to have the experience of not just tuning in inside, but actually being able to share it and and get kind of a response. And yeah, you're right, that happens all the time where as couples try to have these new conversations, like it's kind of like this overlap. I'm thinking of like a Venn diagram, right? There's the old cycle that's kind of still happening, and then there's this new bonding conversation that's maybe part of a new cycle that's emerging, and it's like Like they're both kind of overlapping at the same time that you'll get echoes of the old, even when beautiful things are happening. And so that's like, yeah, that's okay, right? This is this is this inform this is the block. We can make sense of that and informs it, but we can also, you know, just lean in, and it's really cool to hear you talk about it. And I I just think about how many couples had those same kind of aha's, right? Where in the experience of doing this therapy, they can take that with them outside obsession. And it also just kind of it's what gets you out of that trap, right? Which then yeah, you don't then you don't need a mediator, you don't need someone to tell you how to communicate to each other, you don't need like all of that. You don't need, you know, maybe you need to figure out the issue that you were talking about in the first place, but maybe you don't once you feel connected.

Greg 45:02

But if we do, we're we're we have greater capacity to be able to do it in a healthy way. I think that what we've experienced since attending the intensive is that having the baseline of we want the same thing, and also we are safe in this relationship. That allows all of the freak out of, oh my gosh, like what does this mean for us? Well, it it probably just means that we're on our cycle right now. And if that's all it means, if that's all it means, then we don't have to freak out about it and we don't have to go to our old fighting strategies because we're not fighting each other. We're trying to get curious about whatever it is that's pushing us into the cycle. And and another really helpful thing was EFT language that we've as a couple who who've you know done and continue to do that kind of therapy ongoing, have learned how to use. It's much more us, we language than you language. And it takes it out of the realm of being accusatory. Because we learned in this process that there is typically one partner, and you can if there's more that needs to be said about this, feel free, but there's typically one partner who gets into the cycle first.

Stacey 46:21

That would be me.

Greg 46:22

Who goes off the reservation first.

Stacey 46:24

I'm okay with that. I mean I'm not sure.

Greg 46:26

There's typically one partner who notices it first. And it like in our dynamic, if it's Stacy who tends to go into the cycle first and I notice it, what I would do in the our old my my entry into the cycle was to start accusing her of you know acting crazy or whatever. I wouldn't use that language.

Stacey 46:45

But nitpick the words like nitpick. I didn't say it exactly like that.

Greg 46:50

And but now it's like, hey, it feels like we are getting off track. It feels like we are not talking about the thing that's really going on. And it's not a you, it's a it's a we. And that's really it, it just builds up safety.

Stacey 47:08

And even with that, I remember us talking about that. I think, I think in the intensive, it might have been follow-up. It's like there, and there may be one of you that typically notices it first, and that's okay. Because wasn't our MO, you would get frustrated that here we are again, there you go again, and you're not changing, and I have to be the one to say. And I would be like, Well, I didn't I didn't pick up on it again. I'm the screw up, I'm the one that messes up all the time. And and that was just like that one little thing was like, and it it's okay if one person tends to notice it first. Like that was just to me, freed us both. Yeah, like it's okay if you're the one.

Greg 47:47

Yeah, so do something with all that, Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Okay, so I don't want to, I don't want to like get in the weeds, but I do want to offer this. I like that frame of it's okay, whoever notices it first. I think that's really, really helpful because it's true. Like what happens on the surface, that's that's all you have, right? There, but there is something that's happening inside before whatever it is that you say or do or the kind of obvious on the surface stuff. There is, it's really actually impossible to measure who starts it first because there's like mirror neurons, right? Where we are picking up on cues constantly, even when we're not aware of it. Right. Of are we safe? Are we here? Do we matter? As humans, we're just doing that. And so sometimes we're giving off things that we don't know we're giving off. And so if you want to call that starting at first, does that make sense? So it might not be.

Greg 49:01

It could be connected to a look or a tone or something that I wasn't even aware that I was doing, or maybe it was aware that I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Exactly. It just like there's no, it doesn't actually matter, and there's no great way to measure it. Yes. But I think the the takeaway is what you've already what you already have is a couple, which is regardless, your team. You're a team, you're together against the pattern. So you're already, it's in your language, we are doing our thing, or we are cycling. Sure, you could spend time, you know, fighting about who's cycling or whatever, who started it, or something like that. But I think it sounds like the way that you're talking, what's helpful is that really feeling that security of we do want the same thing and we are going for the same goal, it helps you find your way back to each other. The more important part, whether who started it or who noticed it or whatever, is it's okay. It does happen, but we can find our way back. That's right. And you do. It sounds like you do. There's one more thing that's okay that I want to say, because I'm just thinking about your listeners and clients that come to me don't sound as aware and loving and responsive as you are sounding. Okay. And so I want listeners to know like you don't have to be like Greg and Stacy, good, perfect clients, right? That have all this awareness. We work with couples in really high distress, and they might be saying things like, You are the problem. You are the problem. I don't know what to do. I can't get you to stop XYZ. You know what I'm saying? And that like this happens, and this is okay with us. We can slow that down too. So I just wanted to send that message because I'm just imagining people listening and thinking, oh yeah, this just works for really nice people.

Greg 51:09

Well, that almost works.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Or well behaved or something like that, right?

Greg 51:13

Well, but there's, I mean, there's even difficulties in the way you were describing us, because obviously there's no such thing as perfect clients. I know you were tongue-in-cheek with that, but we had done a lot of work before we came to the intensive, and we've done a lot of work since, but that presents its own challenges because I mean, there are some elements in which I think if you were to really shine a light on the deep belief that I was carrying, is that a lot of these conflicts, you are the problem. You know, and but I but I knew enough to not say those words. And so in that sense, I'm not really showing up honest. So if somebody is at that crisis point of saying, I think you're a hundred percent the problem, okay. It's just been vomited up on the table. Now we know what we're working with.

Stacey 51:57

Yeah, and that'd be one of those things that I think I would I've that's my belief, whether you suggest it or not. But we had done a ton of work to that point. And yet to say that that experience was life-changing to me, it still blows my mind to think about like we really were so good, and so good meaning we were in a good place with each other. But when we did get in that cycle, it was horrible. And I and it was so discouraging.

Greg 52:23

But all the work that we that people do, it builds on each other, you know, and the the work we do in the early stages that comes in handy with the second stage work and then the third stage work. And so what I hear you saying is that that EFT is helpful no matter where where on your timeline it comes in. Yeah. And then the things that you do down the road are gonna, you know, be helped by by that. And and and so it it all if we're engaged in the process of of finding our you said finding our way back to each other. And that's a beautiful way of putting it. Then then I think we can trust the process. And for people of faith, you can trust that God is gonna work in the process and availing yourself of the right tools and the right helpers and the right processes, then he uses all of that. Real quick, because I know we're coming up on our time, but you wrote a book and love to give you a chance to talk about. I have feelings about this. That's not me talking about your book, that's the title of your book. I have feelings about this. So tell us about the book. What was the motivation, and what will people find if they pick up a copy?

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah, that's so funny. I haven't thought about the book in a while. It this was just, you know, I'm a writer, I love to write, and I always wanted to write a book, kind of didn't know what to write about. And through being a therapist and the process of doing EFT, I just kept seeing all these parallels, right? Kind of like developing as a human, but also leadership. And so the book is a very personal book. So if you wanted to get to know me, you know, that's like a very straight way to get to know me. But beyond that, I really wrote it for people who are like me in that part of your strategy is overachieving. And so if there's overachievers out there, you know, who you're there's like on one hand, you you are like you hate the hustle, you don't want to keep hustling or the grind or whatever, this book is for you. It's about slowing down, tuning in, right? Because there's something beautiful in that and worth recapturing. Does that make sense? So it's it's got a lot of EFT in there, it's got a lot of parallel sort of process with leadership and just being a person. Um, and then there's invitations in it to look at your own story, ways to slow down um and tune in. So it's on Amazon.

Greg 55:13

We'll we'll put the link in the show notes. We also are going to put redtherapygroup.com link in the show notes if people want to know more about your practice, about how they could potentially connect to it. But I also want to ask you this before we go if someone who's not in the Nashville Franklin area wants to look into EFT, is there kind of a centralized place where they can find EFT therapists in their area, find out more about it? What would you recommend as some good places for people who are curious now to learn more?

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Yeah. So there's two answers to that. First is we do have couples travel from all over the country to do intensives with us. And so you can you can get like a jump start, or if you're already with a therapist and feel a little bit like you're stalling out or stuck, like we collaborate with other therapists and sort of getting you over that hurdle. You know, we really like to take the village approach to helping couples. So intensives is one. Um, I have a whole intensive team. It's not just me that's doing them. On the Red Therapy Group site, there's an intensive tab that you can click on to get started with an intensive. If you're thinking I'm not in Tennessee, I want to do the more traditional weekly, hourly route, then I would send you to ice.com, the International Center of Excellence of Emotionally Focused Therapy. And there is a really good therapist directory on that site. So that can kind of inform your decision.

Greg 56:50

So we'll put that link in the show notes as well. Kelly, gosh, just thank you. I mean, when I say thank you, I specifically for being with us today, but just for just how helpful and and just at a at a really good moment for us, our intersection with you was and continues to be. So just thanks so much. It's great to know you. Uh great to be connected and remain connected with you, and and thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah, thank you so much for taking this time. Oh my god, it's my pleasure. And this has been fun. Thanks for inviting me to be a part of this podcast. Absolutely.