42 | Bob Flayhart: Living the Gospel Waltz

For people in the Birmingham AL area, or who are part of the PCA denomination, BOB FLAYHART is probably a name you've heard. In 1989 Bob was the founding pastor of Oak Mountain Presbyterian Church, and served as lead pastor there until 2024. Bob has remained a consistent advocate for the pure message of God's unconditional love, grace, and transforming power through the gospel. 

Both Greg and Bobby benefitted from Bob's (and OMPC's) openness to provide a welcoming space for recovering people to meet for support. In our conversation we talk about how obvious it is that pastors should be open to supporting people in recovery, and why for some ministry leaders it doesn't seem so obvious.

We also talk about a concept he's been preaching for years, called "The Gospel Waltz," and how understanding it can help Christian believers who struggle to recover from addiction.

#bobflayhart #gospelwaltz #grace #gospel #transformation #oakmountainpresbyterianchurch #ompc #healing #gospel #grace #awaken #awakenrecovery #awakenpodcast #whatwereallywant #wwrw #recovery #connection #conversation

The Gospel Waltz book (on Amazon)

Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:00

Do you have a hard stop time? No. Well, I just got to do my 200 threes today. My 203 point shots.

Bobby 0:07

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've got to get that in. Do you ever like lose track? You're like, is this 91, 92? Oh shoot.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

I mean, because that's like it's about 50 minutes to an hour. When I use a shooting, automatic shooting net, like a machine, school heads kicks it back. That's beautiful.

Greg 0:23

Not only how many shots, but how many you made. Yeah, but you don't have to be rigid because we're not legalists in these room.

Announcer 0:34

Welcome to what we really want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:46

Hey everybody, this is Greg. Welcome back to What We Really Want. This is episode 42. Our guest today is Bob Flayhart, who for over 30 years, I think around 35 years, was the lead pastor at Oak Mountain Presbyterian Church here in Birmingham, Alabama. And he has been teaching this concept that he calls the Gospel Waltz for at least a couple of decades. It has been congealed down into a book that he released a couple of years ago. And so we're calling this episode Living the Gospel Waltz. Sitting here looking at my friend Bobby. What's up? Oh, you know, just stuff. We recorded this conversation a couple of months ago now, I think. It's been a little while. And we sat down, you're like, what did we talk about with him? Pretty sure what we talked about was uh involved the gospel and involved waltzing. This was a great conversation with somebody who over the years has been very, very special to you.

Bobby 1:43

Yes, yes, he has. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. He was my pastor for uh many years. Um, in fact, he was my pastor at a very crucial point in my life when we had come off the mission field broken, and I just was just starting to get into recovery. I I got to sit under his preaching. And uh, as as we talk at our church, when he when he would talk about sit sitting in the hot tub of grace, um that it was really one of the first times of my life that I got to hear grace being preached. Uh I mean, I I know I'd heard it before, but um, just in that particular manner and in the way that I needed to hear it at that particular time of my life. I mean, he really set the tone for our church being a place where you could take off your mask and and be real. And he would do that from the pulpit, you know, just have conversations and well, when you say he would do that, he wouldn't just describe what it would be like, he would do it by doing it. Right. Yeah, he's very open about his own struggles with sin, even like in his while he was preaching. Yeah, that was really impactful for me to be able to see his not just being transparent, but being vulnerable. People could take what he said and and and use it against them if they wanted to. And some have. And some have tried to.

Greg 3:02

Yeah. He says conservatives feel he's too liberal and liberals feel he's too conservative. And exactly. I think Steve Brown said one time that if you've made everybody mad, you're probably doing it about right. So one of the things that we talked about in in depth is this concept that Bob has been teaching for probably now more than 20 years. And it's called the gospel waltz. It started, I guess, as a new perspective on how do we experience and live out the grace that we've been given and the relationship between grace and works and and all that. But he calls it the waltz because it's kind of a one, two, three pattern. It's a one, through, three dance. A dance, yeah. Repent, believe, fight, repent, believe, fight. When we started kind of overlaying the gospel waltz theology over a life of recovery, you realize that recovery calls and invites you to do a lot of waltzing.

Bobby 3:58

Well, I know for my life, the timing of when I started to sit under Bob's preaching and to hear him preach this uh, you know, repent, believe, fight. And how much that overlaid my recovery journey of understanding that I'm not gonna do it perfectly. Uh, but every day I can I wake up and I realize that I'm powerless. I can believe that God can do a work in my life, and then I surrender to Him. Find that same pattern there with the repent believing and then fighting. Um, taking that step, that fight step, after I have been able to believe that God is for me and that he loves me and that he'll give me the power to do it.

Greg 4:40

It was such a great conversation. Bob is such a gracious man, such an interesting person to talk to. It is episode 42. Our guest is Bob Flayhart, and it's called Living the Gospel Waltz. It's starting right now. Bob Flayhart, I'm so happy that we get to sit down with you.

SPEAKER_05 4:59

My pleasure.

Greg 5:00

Bobby and Greg and Bob, we're all here in the studio. I'm so happy you're here. I'm relationally energized, so I need to be with people. As we're getting started, we're going to do what we always do. And let me ask you, what do you really want from our conversation today?

SPEAKER_05 5:13

You know, it's funny you asked because I was actually thinking about that and praying about that over the previous uh day or so. I I know I'm the pastor and sound spiritual. No. This is really my heart. I I want to point people to the hope, motivation, and power of the gospel. No matter what we're talking about, we could talk about how to bake. Um, and I'd still want that to be the focus. That would be my aim, that would be my desire.

Greg 5:43

Let's do it. I've known you for well, I've known of you for longer than I've known you, I guess. Uh I've I first began to know who you were while I was still in pastoral ministry. I got to know you a little bit better after I was in recovery and I was part of a recovery meeting that took place at Oak Mountain Prez. Right. And then I some somewhere along the way we met and just, hey, how are you doing? But I feel like it's just in these last, I don't know, seven or eight years we've really gotten to know each other and spent a little bit of time. Bobby, you know Bob a lot better because he, for how many years?

Bobby 6:18

He's been my senior pastor ever since we moved back to Birmingham in 2010. When I when I share my story, that is always a big part of it because it was it was God's providence that led us to Oak Mountain Prez. Because we were in China. I was I was still living the secret life. Uh nobody knew what was going on. And I knew I needed to find a place to a safe place to ask for help. And I didn't know that that was going to be Oak Mountain. We were moving back to Birmingham and we were trying to figure out where we were gonna we were gonna go to church. And we were like, well, let's let's go to Oak Mountain Press. So I start we we start going to to worship services, and I I don't even know if you remember this, but I knew that Oak Mountain was where I needed to be because one of the very first services we were there, there was, I think you had just started your gospel pipeline series from Titus. Yes. Yes. And there was a video on the screen that I guess maybe was introducing that or introducing something. And it talked about how Oak Mountain was a place for like certain people. It kind of flashed up different words, and one of them said wounded missionaries. Oh my gosh, I'm getting teared up because I saw that and I was like, that is me. Wow. And that's how I knew I was like, this is gonna be a safe place for me to be.

SPEAKER_05 7:44

Amen. Well, we've always longed for that to be the case, and and because we want a safe place for ourselves too. Yeah, it's not like we're gonna make a safe place for all these other needy people. No, we want to be a safe place because we need it to. Yeah, at least I do.

Greg 8:00

Yeah. All right. I'd love for people to get to know you better. So tell us a little bit about yourself, about your family, kind of about you know what you've done, what you're doing currently, because the last few years have introduced some change for you. So tell us whatever you'd like us to know.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

Wow, that's a that's an open question.

Greg 8:17

Maybe we start with yourself and your family.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Sure. So I've been married to Laurie for 41 years. Uh, we have three adult children. Josh, who is 37, Hannah, who is 35, Michael, who is 33. They're all married. Michael just recently. Michael is a missionary to Japan. Hannah's a counselor in Denver, and Josh is a mobile app developer here in Birmingham and uh is an elder at our church, which is just a treat. Michael and his wife, new bride, uh, she's from Brazil. They're here uh on home assignment as they get settled into their marriage and they're raising support, and they hope to be back in Japan in July. So it's just fantastic to be able to spend time all together.

Greg 9:06

Michael's the one I am the most familiar with because of how many things over the years you've posted on your Facebook account about his musicianship.

SPEAKER_05 9:16

Yeah, he's crazy creative. Yeah. He's done some things, some covers. Uh he's done videos where he plays every instrument and then grids them together. Grids them together. Uh it's it's hilarious as well as you know, pretty awe-inspiring. But we we think all three of our children obviously are are incredible. And then we have uh two biological grandchildren and three adopted grandchildren. Oh, that's amazing. Uh, that was one of the reasons why about three years ago, Laurie and I decided it was time to transition out of the lead pastor role at Oak Mountain, a role that we've been in since we started the church in 1989. So it was over 35 years in one place, and it was fantastic. It was great for me, it was great for Laurie, it was great for the children. We decided that we needed to stay because we do believe it's a safe place, Bobby. We decided to to transition, but requested, can we stay? Uh, because uh, first of all, the transition of a long-tenured founding pastor uh out of a church after 35 years is usually a train wreck. Usually the next guy that comes in is a sacrificial lamb and the 50s.

Greg 10:30

Almost like a rebound pastor. Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

And so if if the new guy didn't want us here, and I would understand that, then we were willing to go, but we sure wanted to stay. And God brought us a young man uh whom I love, incredibly gifted, and he really wanted me to stay.

Greg 10:49

Bob, what's been great about the transition and not having the responsibility of weekly sermon prep teaching, envisioning kind of a teaching calendar? What's been great about that? And has anything about it been harder than you thought it would be?

SPEAKER_05 11:06

Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, uh people I'm not after anybody's pity here, but but people have no idea what it is like to preach a different sermon almost every week for 35 years. It's I I if the women will forgive me here. I announ I I I make the analogy of uh giving birth, the labor of of the birth pangs, and then on Sunday, people get to enjoy the baby. Me too. I love the Sunday morning delivery. But then Sunday night, I'm pregnant again.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:42

And I gotta go through another week of labor and then a birth, and then I'm pregnant again. And so it's just nice not to be pregnant again. Um, and then it's freeing me up. Laurie and I have not had weekends for 36 years, as much as I would like to say I was able to live a balanced uh work life. The weekends just didn't work that way, yeah. Just the way I'm wired. So it has been incredibly freeing. Uh Laurie, my friends, people know me really well. They say I'm I'm like a different person. Now, I hope that doesn't mean I was a jerk for so many years. But I think what they're saying is they see the weight off. Now, what I wasn't expecting, uh, and I shared it when we just started the podcast, I'm a relationally energized person. And I didn't realize how many connections were maintained and deepened because I was in the role of a lead pastor. There were certain things built into my schedule, certain appointments, certain relational connections that were just part of being lead pastor. And I wasn't expecting that there would be the struggle uh to maintain and deepen connections. And it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Greg 13:06

I bet you just standing on the platform looking out at the same faces for 35. I mean, obviously faces come and go, but but consistency even gave you a sense of maybe maintaining more connection. Maybe it wasn't deep connection, but you're seeing everybody all the time. That's right. And that really changes when you're not in that posture every week anymore.

SPEAKER_05 13:28

Right. And and the preaching does set the table for opportunities to talk more deeply with other people. And so a certain sermon would would would strike someone's heart in a particular way, and they'd call and say, Hey, can we get together? Or even my interactions with visitors and newcomers that was built in. And so that clearly has been the most difficult part. And I'm still getting used to it. I'm still trying to find ways to initiate, reconnect because a number of these folks, they're continuing with their marriage, their family, their children, their their vocation, and with a new pastor. So where do I fit? And sometimes it's it's hard to know.

Bobby 14:11

As a just a regular person in the congregation, just to see the how seamless the transition was from you to him. It's been awesome.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

What's really cool, this is fun. It really is. There are people at Oak Mountain that I'll meet, they have no idea who I am.

Bobby 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:31

It's like, wow, wow. This is humbling, but it's cool. Because it just reminds us we are not all that. None of us is indispensable. And that can really um that's that's hard for a lot of people to to process and to embrace.

Greg 14:47

Well, I mean, nobody on planet earth who is alive 125 years ago is alive today. Right. And the planet goes on. That's true. And it will after we're gone. And that is humbling, but it also in a way is really comforting.

SPEAKER_05 15:00

Amen.

Greg 15:01

It doesn't all rest on anybody's shoulders. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 15:03

Other than the Lord's. Yeah, and it reminds us the larger story, right? That God has written a story from the beginning of time to Jesus and from Jesus to his return. We're we're just playing our parts in God's larger story. And when our time is done, hopefully we've played our part faithfully, and there'll be other people that even hopefully we've equipped to play their parts, and the story goes on.

Greg 15:25

Bob, I want to shift over and just reminisce a little bit. Bobby and I met in a room of recovery at Oak Mountain Presbyterian in 2010. And I've experienced OMPC as a place that I would just say it is very recovery friendly. They're not only recognizing that recovery is a legitimate experience for people in general and Christians specifically, but it's something that the church has wanted to be a part of empowering and providing for. Also, the things that I heard people who who were a part of OMPC talk about the way that you preached. You know, a pastor who, when talking about sin, is talking about his sin. Right. And not only in the hypothetical or the past tense, but like, hey, this is how this is what my last week has looked like. And I know just because of our conversations and having, you know, read your book that we'll talk about later, that you've caught some heat for that. But getting to a question, the experience that a lot of us have had having a church that was so welcoming and so opening and so empowering of it is not how all pastors or churches feel about recovery. Has that been something you've noticed? And if so, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_05 18:12

Yeah, I I have noticed it. It's hard not to notice. I I think it it goes back to our foundational beliefs about God, about his heart, and about the gospel. Look, I know there's different levels of brokenness that people face because of wounds, trauma, all kinds of reasons. But ultimately the gospel says we're all in recovery. I'm not just saying that because it's a you know uh cool thing to say as far as today's you know vernacular. The fact is, Hebrews 2 says that Jesus came to restore many sons to glory. That sounds to me like that's the very core of what we're talking about when we talk about recovery. So if anybody in my mind and heart is is truly understanding that the core of the gospel is Jesus came to make all things new, uh, which assumes the assumption, the the first assumption of the gospel outside of there is a loving God who created us, is that we are in need of restoration. We're addicted to sin in spite of its many forms. And Jesus came to restore us, he came to lead us because he he really wants to do that. That's the Father's plan to restore us to him, to restore us to health in ourselves, and to restore us in health to one another. So the gospel is the language of recovery. Now I think there's reasons why some churches are afraid. I I think they're afraid they're gonna see their own members show up, which hello. Great, of course, that's one of the reasons you do it. It's funny. I've had people say, Bob, you know, this this grace that you preach, just everywhere you go where grace is preached, the church is a mess. I tried to be respectful and funny at the same time. I said, I said, my friend, your church is uh just as much of a mess, if not more. But it's all underground because people don't feel safe in in being honest. Yeah. Uh yeah, the mess is the pre-existing condition. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think some people are afraid of the mess. I think legitimately, to some people's defense, they're thinking, what is the extent of the brokenness of some of the people of our communities? And does it put other people at risk? Okay. And so I I think those are some of the reasons. I think they're afraid of being labeled as liberal. How how how the the restorative elements of the gospel is liberal, I'll never understand. But there are people who begin to think, well, if you're open to this kind of recovery, that must mean that you don't think it's contrary to God's word that they practice that. And it's like one of the things we get when people visit Oak Mountain, they hear we're the grace church, which is not fair to many other churches that are just as grace strength. Right. And then they'll come to a sermon and I'll be talking about repentance as the first step toward true recovery. And they're like, Well, wait a minute. I I thought I was gonna hear grace. You are that that is the first step of a turn toward grace. Tim Keller said, uh, to experience grace, all you need is need. Well, you express need in repentance. So, yes, there's a number of reasons why uh certain uh churches decide that they they're uh insecure about a recovery like program or ministry or focus.

Greg 22:04

It is interesting to me how certain words get commandeered in certain subcultures. Right. If you look at the way that God distributes his grace, it's pretty liberal. Yeah, that's right. I know you say in your book that you've been called too liberal by conservatives and too conservative by liberals.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think I think recovery is honestly, I think you go to Hebrews 2. How does anybody get around that Jesus' whole aim is to restore many sons, and that means sons and daughters. If that's not recovery, what is?

Bobby 22:38

I love that because I I've never really put that verse together with what we do with awakened. So I I love that you brought that up because we always say, like, our our vision statement is that we're uh awakened exists to help people become what God created them to be. Amen. And that's what it is. Help them live the lives they were created for. Helping to live the lives they were created for, is I think is the actual wording. But it's that's what we're doing. And our particular avenue is to focus on sexual brokenness because we believe that sexual brokenness has come in and and hijacks what God has created us to be. And so we're helping to, as you say, restore. Like that's what that's what we are recovering. And so, anyway, that's just cool. I'm glad you said you brought that up because that kind of gives me another connection in my head of uh with that Hebrews passage.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Well, if you think about it, and then you go to 2 Corinthians 3 18, and it says, We behold Christ, as we gaze upon Christ in faith, as we continue to put our hope in the realities of the gospel, we are being transformed from one degree of glory to another. So now we go back to Hebrews 2, and Jesus came to restore many sons to glory. How does he do that? As we trust more deeply, moment by moment, in his finished work on the cross. And that's that's the, you know, you hate to break it down to something simplistic, but that's the recipe for all recovery.

Greg 24:00

Oh, I love breaking things down to simplistic. That's the only way I understand anything. No, I I was just thinking, though, with what you've been talking about, and then what bot the connection that Bobby just made with what our mission is, that means that our chief end of Awaken is not to help people quit looking at porn. And it's not to help people heal from betrayal trauma. Those are the ways that God uses us to help people live the lives they were created for. And getting back to something simple, I mean, that idea for me came from Jesus' very clear explanation of the game strategy for both evil and heaven in John 10 10. You know, the the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I've come that they might have life and have it abundantly. And so, like, what were we created for? We were created for life, eternal life and abundant life. And there's a lot of Christians who've received the gift of eternal life, but they're sure not experiencing abundant life. That is so true. And we're we're accepting, you know, seconds or thirds or fourth best because we think that we've disqualified ourselves from experience abundance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:13

Or we've bought in, yes. Or, and or we've bought into the lie that the world offers more abundant living than God and his heart through the scriptures does. If the gospel's true, if it's good news, then at his core, God is good, God is loving. And that means that if he who created us commands us to do something, it's actually an invitation to our highest pleasure. And if he, as the good, good father, the good, good God tells us to stay away from something, if he prohibits something, then it's a warning against our worst nightmare. And so the enemy lies, just like he did to Eve in Genesis 3, and says, You can't trust God's heart toward you as good. I've got something better. Well, that's what the world is saying.

Bobby 26:07

Yeah. Bob, I'll just say what I started doing with my kids when they were little, when I would talk to them about why they should follow God's commands. I was like, God has created you and He knows what is good for you. And so that's why there's, you know, they these certain things, why we should do these things and stay away from these things. It's not because, oh, there's this weight that God wants us to not, you know, not enjoy these things, but exactly what you said. It's an invitation to our greatest pleasure. And so, like, I don't know, it's been an honor for me to be able to share that with my kids.

SPEAKER_05 26:37

I mean, I've told people all the time that my sermons are simply my devotions with Jesus that everybody else gets to sort of listen in on. I'm preaching to myself every week when I preach. And so I need to be reminded of that because I'm just as prone to listen to lies and believe lies as anybody.

Greg 26:57

Okay, Bob, hard shift. Everybody knows Christians don't dance. So what's all this gospel waltz mess? Yes. Tell us about the gospel waltz. Where did it come from? And then I want us to dive in.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Okay. So the Gospel Waltz is a result of my doctoral work at Covenant Seminary 25 years ago. Well, it started 30 years ago, but finished 25 years ago. And I was looking for a discipleship strategy that was more robustly integrated with the foundational elements of the gospel. In other words, I saw discipleship processes and ministries out there that were almost cookie cutter. They were so structured. Uh step one, step two, step three, step four, step five. Okay, now phase two. Step one, step two, step three, step four, step five, now phase three, and on and on and on and on. And you know, it seemed to attract the the people like me who were performers and achievers. But I noticed that box checkers. Yeah, exactly. And it left uh an awful lot of people uh wanting more. And then I saw on the other side of the discipleship spectrum these relational grace guys, and they just wanted to meet and talk and maybe become real and authentic, and then uh wrap up talk about how much God loves us. Now, there's there's actually some effectiveness to that, but it's not very reproducible. Like, okay, you go and do this with someone else. Yeah. Uh there's got to be some structure. Plus, the gospel isn't just the message of God's unconditional love in Christ for undeserving sinners. It is that, but it's more than that. It's also about God's supernatural transforming power. Grace isn't a concept, it's the heart and work of God. And so it is the message of unconditional love. Yes, yes, yes. All of us, all of us who are in recovery in different ways. If if we don't, if we don't constantly drink of that river, we are gonna lose heart. We are gonna lose hope. And then in seeking relief in our despair, we're gonna turn right back to other worldly things. So we've we've got to know that on my best day, God doesn't love me any more than he does on my worst day. And on my worst day, he doesn't love me any less than he does on my best day because God doesn't love me because of me. He loves me because of the finished work of Christ and my union with him. So all that to say, I was dissatisfied with what I saw out there to try to bring discipleship. So what I realized is if you look at all the discipleship models, I read scores of books and I interviewed scores of people. And I discovered that there were really three main elements to living out the gospel. Three main elements. Well, I've asked people, what's the spirit-filled life? I've said, tell me right now, are you filled with the spirit? How do you know? And they'd said, Well, I think so. And I don't know how I know. Or use another word of phrase of Paul, are you walking in the spirit? Yeah. Well, I think so. Uh John 15, are you abiding in Christ? How do you know? What's it mean? And I ran into all these believers that didn't know. And so I thought, well, we've got to start there. What does it mean to grow in grace, abide in Christ? Three elements. Repent of your sin. Again, all transformation, I believe, begins at repentance. The grace of God leading us to repent. Romans 2, 4. The kindness of God leading us to repent. Why? Because God opposes the proud, gives grace to the humble. Keller again. To experience.

Greg 31:02

And repentance is an act of humility.

SPEAKER_05 31:04

That's right. Yeah, God opposes the proud, gives grace to the humble. So the three elements parallel the rhythm of a musical waltz, whether it's Tchaikovsky, whether it's Strauss, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. And the waltz is repent of your sin, believe the gospel afresh by affirming its unconditional love, God's unconditional love for you in Christ, but also appropriating or claiming the supernatural transforming power of grace. See, there are those two elements of grace I was talking about. The belief step says the message of grace is not just God's unconditional love. It is, but it's also supernatural transforming power. And 2 Corinthians 3.18 says we can be transformed from one degree of glory to another as we gaze upon Christ, as we hope in the promises of the gospel. So repent, believe. The last step we call fight. Now, some people don't like that because it sounds violent. Well, guess what? The Christian life is violent.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

It's not violent toward the world. I don't play these culture war things. Paul, Paul, and Jesus talk a whole lot more about us discipling the church than trying to disciple non-Christians. The culture. Yeah. You don't disciple the culture. You transform it by living out redemptive lives in our vocations. But this trying to bloody the nose of the culture is just barking up the wrong tree. But the flesh wars against the spirit. The spirit wars against the flesh. Every time the new nature, the new heart, the new spirit of God in us gives us a godly impulse, this alien power within us that God in his providence allows to remain in the born-again Christian. I don't know why he does. Well, maybe because he wants us to be restored to glory bit by bit. I mean, if he wanted just to restore us to glory, why didn't he just take us home that conversion? So he wants to restore us to glory. He does that as we are aware of our sin, repent of it, put our hope in Christ afresh, that our standing and status has not changed before God. His love for us is constant, but also trusting God's grace to change us through the resurrection life of Christ in us at the point of our repentance, and then we step out to fight against sin and fight for righteousness in our own lives and in the lives of those we love. And so that's the waltz. Repent, believe, fight, repent, believe, fight. And waltzing doesn't fit fix you. It's not a silver bullet. Waltzing is simply a broken people with broken lives live in a broken world until Christ returns, yet all the while being restored to glory, all the while making substantial progress. And one of the things that at times I wonder about, not in awaken, I will gladly say this, but in recovery models out there, is I've seen men or women who are willing to admit they're broken, okay, good so far. They share their brokenness, that's fine. But then they just sort of hold hands and commiserate about their brokenness and then slap this grace thing over their brokenness. And that's not recovery. It's not recovery till we start talking about the power of the gospel and that God loves us just where we are, but he loves us too much to leave us there. And we've got to call each other to more, you know, and we've also got to say in the fight step of the waltz, there are real consequences to sin. God's grace covers us personally, relationally with him, but there is shrapnel to any sin.

Greg 34:55

Yeah. I mean, I I'm just thinking now how many people in our community, in the work that they're doing of recovery and healing, are coming to understand how previous traumatic or adverse early life experiences hurt them and contributed to a belief that they acted out in ways that turned out to be very harm harmful, hurtful, and destructive. And destructive to themselves and to other people in their lives. Right. And the the the crux that they come to and the sometimes the conflict is oh, so what happened to me wasn't my fault. True. What I did about that is still my responsibility. Right. I need to own that. Also true. And and boy, that's that's hard to hold both of those things at the same time because you'll have people with an orientation of, it doesn't matter why I did it. I'm just a horrible sack of crap. And, you know, I just shouldn't have done it. It does absolutely matter why you did it, because if you don't understand it, you can't own it.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

That's right.

Greg 35:58

But if you understand it and say, oh, well, then I didn't do anything wrong. We're not relating to our experience from an adult place. That's right. You know, because adults understand that when we take action, we have to live with everything that comes with that. And every action we take has some consequences that we like and some consequences that we don't like. Yep. That's well said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:18

And you you just, without even using the words, you just waltzed. You talked about the need to own it, but uh, but we can't own it unless we understand what it is we need to own. That's the repent step.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:32

Um, and then we we we can't condemn ourselves. We can't stay even in owning it. We've gotta we we own it, but we can't stay stuck in the world.

Greg 36:43

Well, the belief part keeps the ownership from becoming overwhelming or shaming. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 36:49

Exactly. And shame is destructive. Yeah. So I what I we tell people is the repent step keeps people from from self-righteousness. The belief step keeps people from self-despair or self-reliance. I mean, how many people in recovery just think if I try harder, I can dig myself out of this hole?

Greg 37:08

Well, at some point, all of us.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So the belief step keeps you from self-despair. That's the first part of the gospel, that it does mean God's message of unconditional love for undeserving sinners. And then it keeps me out of self-sufficiency or self-reliance because I need to trust Christ to change me supernaturally from the inside out, to change my desires, to change my want-wos. But that also leads to the fight step because I have the spirit working in me. And I'm not a I'm not a lifeless stick flowing with the current of a river, waiting for God to zap me. See, that's what the fight step reminds us of.

Greg 37:47

I show up, I cooperate.

SPEAKER_05 37:49

Right. And so the fight step keeps us out of the ditch of self-indulgence and passivity.

Bobby 37:57

I'm just thinking about how much this relates to what we do with awakened and the 12 steps. And I mean, the the 12 steps is waltzing. Like you're we're powerless. And you know, we move from from that for understanding that we're powerless and to understand that there is a God who can save us and restore sanity. And then we learn how to surrender to that God. And then once we establish that, we move into the hard, like I mean, it's all hard, but some people would say even that like the harder parts of it where you're actually having to do some work and you're doing the moral inventory and you're sharing it with people, and then you're understanding honest about your defects. Yeah, you're understanding your your character defects, and then you're making amends, and you know, but we we the idea of the 12 steps is you keep doing them over and over and over again. It's just like the waltz. Right. You know, you repent, you believe, you fight, and then but you're always doing it. You know, you're always repenting, you're always believing, you're always fighting.

SPEAKER_05 38:53

I love Jesus is the lead. See, it's if well, I don't know about y'all, but I'm a terrible dancer. Um I'm married to a great dancer, which does not bode well.

Greg 39:04

Sorry, Lori. Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

Um but Jesus is the lead. Yeah. And and the thing to remember about waltz music is is it's playing through every event, situation, circumstance, and relationship of life. You see, the music of the waltz is God's pursuit of our heart and love through every circumstance of our lives. So even if we're sinned against, if it bubbles up sin as a reaction in us or turns us in our own reaction and response towards sin, then that's the waltz music God wants us to dance to. See, we want to make the music about other people. And what we want is we want to stop our music. I don't want to. I don't want to waltz with Jesus. I don't want to have to need Jesus. Oh I just want my situation to be fixed. I don't want to struggle anymore. I just want to be fixed. So that would be stopping the music. Uh, my prayer is oftentimes, without using the words, God just stop the music, fix my circumstance, fix me. And could he do that? Of course he could. Looking at the story of scriptures, he usually does not. And he he's calling us to waltz. So sometimes what I'll do is I'll in my flesh, I end up focusing more on stopping my own music than recognize what's the music going on around me and in other people's lives, and how can I point them to Christ? How can I help them to waltz and engage the circumstances rather than seeking to escape them?

Greg 40:48

Every conversation like this continuously reminds me of just the beautiful connection between recovery and the gospel, which makes sense because 12-step recovery that's been around now almost a hundred years, all of the 12 steps is restated scripture. You know, Bobby was just quoting steps one, two, and three. And I was even thinking when you were talking about the the fight part, you know, one of my favorite passages of scripture in Philippians 2, where Paul tells the Philippians to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Well, a doer who wants to do it himself, or a shame-ridden person who's like, this is why I'm still broken, because I have to do it myself and I can't. Like with that filter, either way, we stop right there in the middle of the thought because it continues and it says, For it is God in you to will and to act for his good pleasure. So here's the here's the directive. Work out your salvation. And then here's something you really need to know. This is pretty key and important. You can't do it. Right. You can't even want to do it. Right. So if you have a desire to obey this command, and if you have any power to obey this command, that's me. Your part is show up and surrender and cooperate. And even the words of step three are made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him. And so it's it's recognizing that my desire and my actions have to be driven by a power greater than myself if they are going to be redemptive or restorative or recovery.

SPEAKER_05 42:27

That'll preach. Won't it? That'll preach. You know, it you're what you're saying reminds me of um probably the man who saved my faith. And and this is a whole nother podcast or story, but but I almost chucked the Christian faith. I didn't become a Christian till I was 20. I almost chucked it when I was 23 because I'm such a performance junkie.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:48

I I am an approval addict. Okay. And I everything I put my mind to growing up, I was able to accomplish. And then I became a Christian. And I don't care how hard you work, you're not gonna be perfect. And so I thought that the Christian life was I'm going to heaven when I die, but I gotta try hard right now. And and there is a place for effort. Yeah, however, sure, I was completely self-reliant. If it's up, if it's to be, it's up to me, kind of thing.

Greg 43:19

Yes. It's hurt so many people.

SPEAKER_05 43:21

Oh well, I was stuck because I thought, well, the Christian life doesn't work. And then I started doing research to buttress my faith with facts, and I realized, okay, now I'm really stuck because it is true. It's just not working for me. Oh, wow. And so I couldn't chuck it anymore because I knew it was true. Like I knew that I knew that I knew there's just too much evidence out there. It takes more faith to not believe in God and the gospel as it does to, you know, to believe God and the gospel. And so I knew it was true. Now I'm really stuck, it's not working.

Bobby 43:52

And it's like, what's what's wrong with what's wrong with me? Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Yeah. And and that's where I read a uh a guy by the name of Francis Schaefer. And Francis Schaefer uh was a pastor, and I read in a book called True Spirituality, he went through the exact same thing I was going through. And he almost struck the faith as a pastor. And it's in the preface to true spirituality. I've said it so many times, I almost have it memorized, but he he ended up saying this. He studied the Bible for months to say, I've I can't preach another sermon until I figure this out. And so uh he then walked the Alps. Must be nice to have a crisis, to have a crisis of faith and walk the Alps. But um he said, he wrote this in the preface to true spirituality. He said, I soon discovered that with all the things I had learned since becoming a Christian, I had heard nothing about the present value and power of the blood of Christ for my daily life. Hearing this, the sun came out and the song came back. So what what I learned was again, we're broken and we're gonna be broken. Now we're not content in our brokenness, nor are we taking our brokenness lightly. We're just acknowledging that nothing's gonna fix me. There is no silver bullet. So I need the gospel of God's grace to affect my present mindset which I'm not loved or delighted in because um I'm loved and delighted in because I'm united to Christ. That's Grace's unconditional love.

Greg 45:37

Yeah. The gospel saved me and the gospel keeps changing me.

SPEAKER_05 45:40

That's right. And then though Schaefer reminded me that, or taught me, he didn't remind me, he reminds me now, but he taught me then that the same trust in Christ that saved us at conversion is the same trust in Christ that transforms us. See, people don't have any trouble believing, well, non-Christians do, but people who are Christians have no trouble believing that trust in Christ is what connects them with eternal life. It's it's it's like Christianity 101, right? You how do you become a Christian? You put your hope and trust in the finished work of Christ and stop trusting yourself, you admit your sin. How are you changed as an addict, as a person being restored to glory? How do you change? The same exact way. You acknowledge your sin, you repent, you believe the gospel afresh, you trust there's a present value, there's a converting value to the blood, there's also a transforming value to the blood, and then you step out to fight against sin and fight for righteousness. And then you fail. And then you repent. And then you believe, and then you fight, and then you fail.

Greg 46:53

One, two, three, one, two, two, three. Just like the waltz. Man, you're reminding me of a new song by our friend Andy Gullah, where he he starts the first verse with a story about when he went to church camp. He said the last night they'd they'd start the hard sell for the Lord. Right. And they would ask him, you know, when were you saved? And like they really, he had to come up with an answer. And he said, If I could answer, if I could go back and answer it now, I think I would say, yesterday, this morning, and hopefully tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 47:24

Amen. So we've been saved from the penalty of sin if we've trusted Christ. We are being saved from the power of sin progressively, and we one day will be saved from the very presence of sin. And the trick, the trick, the trickiness of the Christian life is how do I be content with who I am in Christ, and at the same time deal with ever deepening sobriety with my brokenness. And that's the that's the tough part of the Christian life. And and I would say particularly about sexual brokenness, yeah, it's particularly hard because while God is patient with you, a spouse doesn't have the patience of God. And so I I find that people that especially deal with some some elements of brokenness that involve other people can sometimes feel really trapped or or under very great pressure.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:37

Because, okay, I can't fix myself, but if I don't get fixed, I'm gonna lose everything. And again, it's not fixed, that's the wrong word.

Greg 48:45

And it's also and it's also not everything, but it feels like everything. Right. You know, I I had a conversation earlier today with somebody from our community who I think at a certain point would have said he lost everything because he lost his marriage. And yet, you know, I was talking to him about like you just told me about some things that were aha's after your last session with your therapist. And you don't, you're not doing the work with the desired outcome of saving your marriage because it's already gone. You're doing the work because you see you have the value as a son of God and you have the need to be healthy and to live out of who you are. And so, you know, the I'll I'll lose everything. It sure does feel that way. But one of the things that the gospel and the process of recovery/slash sanctification, because we realize those two concepts are synonymous, exactly, is regardless of the consequences I face, uh I don't ever have to consider myself off of this trajectory of my life becoming who God says I have already been made.

SPEAKER_05 49:54

Yeah, I use the words position and condition. It's the same thing. Yeah. Our position in Christ is one thing. Our condition on a daily basis is something else altogether. I guess you're not better because it rhymes. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, God's that's the preacher coming out of my. I would say too, and this is this is this is to say thank you to both of you, you men. The 12 steps is just a tool, and a tool is only as useful as the one who is availing him or herself of it. So I've found that there are some churches and ministries or recovery groups that use the 12 steps, but they're not using it the way they were meant to be used. They've divorced it from the Christian worldview, they've divorced it from the gospel. And okay, people can what is a prophet a man again, the whole world loses soul? Now, is there any benefit to helping someone live a more a less chaotic life?

Greg 50:56

A less chaotic life.

SPEAKER_05 50:57

Yeah, sure.

Greg 50:59

But let's not stop there. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Exactly. And that's where I think you're absolutely right. People, people come to Christ if the tool is used rightly. And and that's why I want to really give kudos to you to awaken, because I think you're using the the 12 steps properly.

Greg 51:16

Well, thank you. And we always say, and and I'll say it now, you know, if if Jesus isn't your jam, like we don't want you to tune out because the principles that we're talking about will help you. Like if you don't believe anything we've been talking about for the last 45 minutes, and you're struggling with an addiction or a compulsion, a stutness that you can't dislodge yourself from, the 12 steps will help make your situation better. Period. I also believe that it's a way to experience God, the God who made you, in a way that's maybe different from what you've ever thought of. And and the cool thing is we don't have to take responsibility for anyone's outcome. It's not my responsibility whether everybody who comes to awaken or listens to this podcast ends up a Christian. And when I can say that's God's job and that's the Holy Spirit's role, then I can speak the truth. I don't have to be ashamed of the fact that I'm a follower of Christ. I don't have to hide that, but I also don't have to shove it down anybody's throats and make them feel like, well, you're not welcome here unless you adhere to and subscribe to everything that we believe. Absolutely. I can trust that God is able and wise and powerful enough to work all that stuff out. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 52:38

Yeah, I think another way to put it too is anybody can change their behavior. You don't need to be a Christian. Anybody can change their behavior.

Greg 52:45

And there's something good about changing your behavior for the better.

SPEAKER_05 52:48

Absolutely. Helps other people, helps uh ourselves in many ways, but we can do nothing to change our own hearts. And what I would say to everybody listening is I can no more change myself than I could have saved myself. That's the beginning of real repentance right there.

Bobby 53:07

Man, I know you're looking at me. I'm like, I'm just sitting back soaking in the hot tub, just soaking in the hot tub. Yeah. I mean, this this kind of reminds me of when we interviewed Steve Brown. Just kind of we just kind of throw out some questions and let them talk, you know? I'm doing that to you, Bob.

SPEAKER_05 53:21

I'm not in Steve Brown's league. I don't I don't have the voice or the brain.

Greg 53:26

Well, when you started quoting Schaefer, I thought you were about to quote Jack Miller because uh because Steve did quote him often as well. Yeah, cheer up, you're a lot worse than you think, but cheer up because God's grace is greater than you could possibly imagine. Right. And then you know the third one.

SPEAKER_05 53:41

No, what's the third one? The third one is once you've cheered up about your worst than you think, and once you've cheered up, God loves you more than you ever dreamed. The third one is cheer up, come and die.

Greg 53:50

Take up your cross and follow Jesus daily.

unknown 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:53

Hmm.

Greg 53:55

Yeah. It's that it's fun soaking in the hot tub. And then, as you have said many times, we got to get out. Yeah, we'll cook. We'll cook.

SPEAKER_05 54:04

There's not one jacuzzi that doesn't have a warning sign. Yeah, that's right. And so, yes, we need to bask in the warmth of God's love and grace, but we also need to realize grace is transforming power as much as it is unconditional love.

Greg 54:19

At the beginning, Bob, you said that what you wanted was that people would understand the hope, the motivation, and the power of the gospel. And I thought about those three words, and I think that probably Joe average person who's been in the church or who's a Christian would understand, okay, I get the hope that the gospel gives me. I get the power of the gospel. So what is the gospel? What are you hoping as we finish up that the gospel will motivate people listening to this conversation to experience or do today?

SPEAKER_05 54:51

Well, I mean, motivation is is so much of who we are as people. I can be motivated out of fear, or I can be motivated out of pride. And those can be powerful motivations, but it doesn't mean they're good motivations. Or I could be energized by love and grace. I could be energized by the fact that I am validated and accepted by God in Christ and I'm striving from acceptance, not for acceptance. Well, that's a whole different motivation. I can be motivated out of regard for self. That that that can be a motivation. Not can be, it is. But I could also be motivated for the glory of God and for the love of other people. So motivation that flows from the gospel flows from love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and the hope of the promises of the gospel being true, that Jesus is actually restoring me to glory as I waltz. That is how we're restored to glory, is we waltz. And so my motivation is more fueled by Jesus and his finished work than it is by any uh sub-motivation. And that it really matters.

Greg 56:26

It does. It's doing the same thing for very, very different reasons.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

Yeah.

Greg 56:31

And the amount of fulfillment and joy that will come out of that is gonna really depend on what's motivating the action. Right. Just like the 12 steps, just like recovery.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

See the 12 steps will will quote unquote work at one level. So just personal improvement, that will work, but that's not the best motivation.

Greg 56:54

It might be a good one to start with.

SPEAKER_05 56:56

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Greg 56:57

And then let's be, let's not sell ourselves short to how deep this actual healing could go. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 57:03

And that's see, that's where the waltz continues. We the waltz goes to deeper levels. So we start at one level, and now it's like, ooh, I didn't even realize that was my motivation.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:13

I need to, I need to repent of that motivation. And I need to, I need to trust God that you love me, even in that poor motivation. But I also need to trust you to change that motivation.

Greg 57:25

Well, that's like inception level. That's grace within grace within grace. Five-dimensional checks, baby. Yeah. Oh, my head hurts. No, this has been so great. Bob, thanks for sitting down and talking to us. And thanks for putting such a clear and sharp point on it.

SPEAKER_05 57:44

Well, what I said, I was hoping. I I love pointing myself to Jesus, and I love helping other people. It's like cupping people's faces and turning them up to gaze upon Jesus. One last thing, which is a selfless plug, um, selfish plug. Um, if anybody's interested in the gospel waltz, it's available on Amazon. Yeah. I'm taking a group to it right now, and I'm like, who wrote this? It's pretty good.

Greg 58:13

This is well, I didn't say that, but I thought this is really helpful. It's okay if you did say that. Steve Brand brags on himself all the time. Steve, Steve can get away with things that I can't touch. Oh, come on. Thanks again. Such a blessing. My pleasure. Thanks for being doing it. We'll do it.