41 | Corinne Vance: Putting the Pieces Together

There are certain experiences that are excruciatingly hard to talk about, and from which healing is incredibly difficult. Sexual abuse is far more common than most people realize, yet survivors often feel isolated and carry shame over their abuse. They need kind, caring people to support their healing.

Corinne Vance is that kind of person. She has worked therapeutically with men, women, and adolescents for over 20 years. She has provided training and consultation (globally and in the U.S.) in the areas of aftercare for survivors of sex trafficking and domestic violence. She recently served as Director of Trauma Therapy at The WellHouse, a safe haven for victims of human trafficking in Alabama, and continues to provide clinical supervision for staff there.

Corinne describes sexual trauma as something "that affects every family." In our conversation we unpack some of the intricacies of sexual trauma & abuse, talk about its impact on all relationships, and discuss how wrestling with God is a good thing.

#corinnevance #traumatherapy #sexualtrauma #sexualabuse #therapy #spiritualhealing #counseling #healing #gospel #grace #awaken #awakenrecovery #awakenpodcast #whatwereallywant #wwrw #recovery #connection #conversation

Corinne's counseling website

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

You know, if you've been in a major auto accident, let's say you've been hit by a tractor trailer and you're healing and you go through physical therapy, it is excruciatingly painful, but you get the function of your legs back. And so that word function is important. And also the idea of getting a life. And what does it mean to come alive? What does abundant life mean? Yeah. What does it mean to really experience the love, the delight of this God?

Announcer 0:40

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:52

Hey friends, welcome back to What We Really Want. This is Greg here with Stacy. Hey, hun. Hey. Today is episode 41. It's called Putting the Pieces Together, and our guest is Corinne Vance. Corinne has been a friend of ours for a few years now. We talk a little bit and you'll hear it about how we came to know each other. Her journey got her to Alabama. She was connected to a counseling practice and was looking around for resources and support that she could offer to clients who are going through sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma recovery, and she found us. Then, as we've gotten to know her better, we have come to understand how many different arenas in which she's really, really helping people. There is an organization in our area called the Wellhouse, which is a residential facility for women and children who are coming out of the world of having been sexually trafficked. It's just a horrendous, dark experience that's affecting a lot more people than most realize. And right here in our own backyard is a ministry that is helping them to heal, to address their trauma. And Corinne has for a few years now been the senior trauma therapist for the Wellhouse.

Stacey Oliver 2:05

And we've had um several opportunities to go out there and just share a lot of what we do. So that has been really cool to connect with them and get to know some of their staff.

Greg 2:15

Yeah. Corinne, her specialty is working with people who have experienced sexual abuse, sexual trauma.

Stacey Oliver 2:22

Yeah. And I love just her, the way you hear her in the in the interview is is the way she is. She's this calming, soft-spoken person.

Greg 2:33

Yes, absolutely. For such a heavy topic, it's really great to address it with someone who is so gentle and peaceful and calming. And it just made me imagine what it must be like to be someone who had gone through that and then to sit with someone like Corinne who can hold presence and hold space and just show up so compassionately and empathetically. And we even had a few minutes where we talked about some aspects of your story too, because some people, their experience with abuse and sexual trauma is obvious, they remember it. Other people, like with you, you suspect that it's a part of your background, but you don't really have clear memories of it. And we got into that a little bit.

Stacey Oliver 3:16

Yeah, yeah. When we first got into therapy ourselves back in 2009, there were some things that I shared with our therapist. And and knowing some family history of my family's backstory and all that, we just kind of put some pieces together. I because I don't remember. But there are some things that were showing up and it made sense that that's a possibility for me. I've done a lot, you know, sat in that a little bit and processed some over the years, but it was, I guess, another affirming or just felt good to well, the title of the episode, putting pieces together. It was just another maybe piece of that. Um, just to talk about it and hear that it's not I guess I minimize somewhat because I don't remember it.

Greg 4:02

Right. And that's some of that's some of the puzzle. You know, she the the the title of the episode comes from something that Corinne said, which is when you really are starting to go deeper into understanding your story. She said there's a lot of dot connecting and said it's kind of like beginning to put a thousand-piece puzzle together, and you you put another piece in and another piece. And it's not quick work.

Stacey Oliver 4:27

Well, and I just think it's so important to remember anybody who is alive has things that happened, not even, I'm not talking sexual abuse, but like there are things that happened, and we're not looking to blame. But if you can understand, oh, this happened, so so of course this is how I would react. And so it's showing up still today. The ways I show up in our marriage and fears that seem irrational, well, they make sense.

Greg 4:52

And and she made a statement: sexual trauma is something that every family has experienced. And depending on what comes to your mind when you think sexual trauma, sexual abuse, you may say, Well, hey, nope, not my family. But when we expand it out to all of the different difficult or confusing experiences that fall under that umbrella, it really does affect just about everybody. And so it's a topic well worth spending some time with, paying attention to. And so we're we're just grateful that Corinne was able to come to the studio, sit down with us, and spend some time talking about something that's not easy to talk about, but it's super important to talk about it. And so this is episode 41. Our guest is Corinne Vance. It's called Putting the Pieces Together. And it starts right now. We're talking to our friend Corinne Vance. It's been a long time coming.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

It has been.

Greg 5:48

I think we first talked about having you on the show when we were first starting.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Greg 5:55

And that was about 14 months ago. And so, yeah, life. We were talking on the way into the studio about everybody's busy. And we're like, wow, we haven't talked in over a year.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

So so glad that you're here.

Greg 6:08

And so Corinne and Stacy and I are all part of the conversation. I'm I'm excited to talk about it. Corinne, what do you really want out of our conversation today?

SPEAKER_05 6:19

Good question. Really, really good question. I think what I hope is that people that listen to this podcast that it will open up their minds to be curious, to ask more questions, to do it in a way that they're not shaming themselves. They're not judging themselves, but can they just be curious and want to know more? Yeah.

Greg 6:48

That's fantastic. I'll I'll co-sign on that one. So let's start out. Help me remember, I think that we met first because you reached out and contacted us.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

I did.

Greg 7:00

Right?

SPEAKER_05 7:01

I did. Uh-huh. I had.

Greg 7:02

What do you remember about that?

SPEAKER_05 7:03

Um, I was a therapist at that time with a group called Noon Day in Gadston, Alabama. Gadston. And I was meeting with women spouses whose husbands had been um struggling with pornography. And here they are, the wife, the spouse. And so looking for resources, and lo and behold, I came across awaken. And I'm not sure, did I do a Google search? I don't even remember how I came across it, but was thrilled that in our own backyard that there is a group doing this kind of work because the work that I've been involved in, you know, I'm I'm a therapist, but also I'm involved in the world of sex trafficking. And, you know, it's been said many, many times, you can rescue five women and and go through recovery with them. And pimps, handlers, they'll find five more, they'll find ten more until you begin to address what's going on. You know, the buyers have story, pimps have stories. And so, and and that really is in my mind, it's just on the cusp of being talked about men coming forward and saying, Hey, I was sexually abused as a kid.

Greg 8:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Greg 8:39

Well, I mean, so one of the things that we offer is a four-day therapeutic intensive called the Roots Retreat for men who are seeking recovery from unwanted or addictive sexual behavior. And that's what gets them to register, and then they get to the retreat and they realize how little we talk about their sexual behavior because it's all what's before that and underneath that. And we've had over 300 men take part in that program. And of those 320 or so men, uh almost two-thirds of them have self-reported that sexual abuse was a part of their stories. And of course it was, you know. But until we start talking about it, we don't realize. And, you know, even with when it comes to trafficking, there's a lot more being said than used to be, and and I think a lot of recognition that until we address the demand, the supply is going to continue to keep up with it. And so why do people use and get addicted to porn? Because if you know anything about what really happens in porn, you know it's not a victimless crime. And so, yeah, I'm I'm excited to talk about all of that because your specialty or among your specialties is working with clients who have sexual abuse, sexual trauma in their stories. And we're gonna get to that in a minute. But before we do that, I'd love for our listeners to get to know who you are. And so we just start us out by talking about yourself a little bit, where you're from. I know you've been married a long time, you've got grown children, you've got grandchildren. Tell us about your family a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 10:18

My I call him my significant other, um, Randy. We have been married now 52 years. We've known each other for 53 and a half. That's amazing. Um, it's always a uh my Randy is a storyteller. He is a storyteller. And so he is from Birmingham, Alabama. Left when he was 17 to join the Navy. He was with the nuclear subs under the water. So so pretty serious experience for him. And I was from upstate New York, and we met in Hawaii. How about that? And we got married in Hawaii. So that's where we started. Was he at Pearl? He was, he was. He was at Pearl Harbor, and then also worked out of Guam. What were you doing there? So I was from upstate New York, a little town. I was I was born in Scene Atlas, New York, which is a very, very it's a village, okay? And then moved to Schenectady, New York, which I've heard of Schenectady. Schenectady, Troy, and Albany are the tri-cities, and moved to Hawaii. Things were falling apart with my family. I'm a child of divorce. And so my uncle lived in Hawaii and thought, hey, moving to Hawaii would be really good. Why not? You know, the University of Hawaii is there. So that's how I ended up in Hawaii. Major was political science, and that was 1971, 72, the era of women's rights, burn your bra. And so, and I was right there in the middle of it protesting against the war, which what made for odd conversations between myself and Randy. Yeah. Um, being in the Navy. Sounds like it worked out. It did.

unknown 12:17

And you found a way.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

We did, we did, we did. So we have four sons. We lived in the DC area for 33 years. And my I we were raising the four boys, and I also worked with a group of physicians that are in northwest Washington, D.C. called Foxhall Internus. And they their patients were the who's who of Washington, D.C. But they were but they're very good men. And then Randy was doing defense contracting, and so he spent his career with the Navy. Either he was in service, active, or he was doing the defense contracting, supporting them, writing curriculum for the submarines. So and then lo and behold, we we got involved with, we went to a wounded heart conference. I began to figure out oh my gosh, I've been, I've experienced sexual abuse.

Greg 13:31

So And Wounded Heart is referring to Dan Alander's 1990 book, The Wounded Heart.

SPEAKER_05 13:37

Yeah.

Greg 13:37

Which was, oh my gosh, you talk about pioneering.

SPEAKER_05 13:40

Uh-huh.

Greg 13:41

It's I'm sure we'll talk more about Dan.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

It's still, yeah. So didn't really realize what had happened to me as a kid, understand, but knew, you know, that this had happened, the sexual abuse, incest. So, which is a hard word. Um so then we I was exploring Mars Hill Graduate School, and we decided, and Randy was very he was very much on board with all of this. So I'm really grateful for this man. And decided, hey, we're going to Seattle. This is where this school is. This is what we're doing. And so we in an RV, right? We did. We did. We sold the family homestead and left three of our sons. One had married, was down in Texas, but the other three were in the DC area. So we knew that they were had each other and took the RV and went out to Seattle and entered into Mars Hill Graduate School in 2007.

Greg 14:47

So 2007. So 18 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 14:51

Yes.

Greg 14:52

But after a whole lot of adult life and family had happened. That's a huge pivot. Was there ever any part of you that questioned that decision?

SPEAKER_05 15:01

I did. When I when we got to Seattle and I started school, and I was in this experience called practicum, which is just grueling. And I remember coming home and telling Randy, I think we heard from God wrong. I think we I think we should have been in North Carolina and not here. He's like, oh no, this is where we need to be. So and he would attend a lot of the classes with me. So this is very much the two of us that have been together doing this work. He knows my story. He has a story. I think sexual abuse. Oh my gosh. It's in every family. And so, you know, finding that out, talking about that too. So that was the moment when I questioned, what did we do?

Stacey Oliver 15:57

Yeah. Yeah, a couple of those along the way myself. Yeah. Did we did we really hear right here?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yes.

Greg 16:07

Well, what you just said, it's in every family. I want to come back to that because the it that's in every family, you're talking about sexual abuse. And I can imagine some of our listeners saying, it's not in my family. And I and I know that some of that gets to issues of denial or acceptance. Some of it has to do with awareness or lack of awareness, but some of it has to do with what are we defining as sexual abuse. Because you're you're somebody who's devoted a great amount of your life to understanding this and helping people. So I mean, our podcast is all about connection. It's in the subtitle, you know, Conversations About Connection. And I believe true connection requires honesty and vulnerability. But it seems like those would be so hard to find for survivors of sexual trauma because I mean there's so much shame and secrecy involved in that whole realm of what they've been through. What do you make up that most people would think when they hear the phrase sexual abuse? Is it overt, like rape, molestation? But I because I know that there are more experiences with that that are a whole lot more confusing. So I guess what are the what are the what are the things that happen to victims, survivors of sexual abuse that make it so hard for them to feel free to talk about it?

SPEAKER_05 17:32

So your question is really good. Um, sexual abuse is on a continuum, and it's so important to remember that there can be some kind of physical touch, or there can not be. It can be someone who's been exposed to a family member. It doesn't have to be the nuclear family member, it could be uncle, it could be grandfather, exposed to inappropriate parts of their body, exposed to pornography. That's a big one. And so in those instances, there's no touch, but when a child is exposed to it, they know in a nanosecond, they know it. They know because something gets uh stirred in them. Yeah, it is both the it's both a moment of arousal, which would be really difficult to uh name. Very confusing, yeah. Yes, yes. The shame involved with that, yeah, it's it's over the top. So you have that type that is named sexual abuse all the way up to penetration. And so it it can look different ways, and so that's really, really important to be thinking about. It can be a comment from a teacher at school. Um, gosh, you look so pretty today. I can just tell that you're developing into a real fine young woman, all right? And it's how the delivery, the tone of voice that it brings about a sense of uncomfortability.

Greg 19:23

Creepiness, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:24

Creepiness.

Greg 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:25

Yeah.

Greg 19:26

How much have you experienced clients or residents at the organization where you do trauma work now downplaying their experience because it wasn't something that's further down on the spectrum? Well, because that didn't happen to me, then what happened to me wasn't sexual trauma or sexual abuse. Do you do you do you come up against a lot of that?

SPEAKER_05 19:50

I do, but I will say I'm finding it less and less. And I think that's because sexual abuse is being talked about much more. And we do have the me too. And so it's it's becoming something that is can be safe to talk about. Can I ask a question about that?

Greg 20:17

So that that makes a lot of sense. I would imagine before the cultural normalcy of talking about it, before me too, which I think what, 2017, right around there. Before that, I would imagine there's more like aha's in the therapy session where you're naming and giving words to their experience. And it's the first time anybody's ever done that. As opposed to now, I would make up that maybe there are some people coming in saying, Hey, I've got some words for this. Is that what I went through? And if so, what do I do about it? Is there anything to that?

SPEAKER_05 20:52

There absolutely is. And you have both. And I would say I believe I was gonna say, I think the younger people are more comfortable in talking about it, but I'm not sure that's that's actually a hundred percent true. Because there's also people that I have sat with clients where they've never shared it with anybody. This is the first time I've talked about this. And it would come after months and months of work. And so so you have both. You do you st you still have both.

Greg 21:31

I want to take something that's so huge and can feel so overwhelming when you're talking about it, and try to I I don't know, maybe invite our conversation to help everybody listening just get their heads around the process of healing from sexual abuse. Because oh my gosh, that's not like four sessions with a therapist and you know, you're fixed. I mean, clearly. The scope of it, how many parts of our lives are impacted by it. Maybe the some dots that we wouldn't be able on our own to connect, like this thing that happened to me physically impacted me spiritually. You know, I mean in in so many different areas. I'd love for you to just say whatever you want to say about someone who is coming to begin to understand this was my experience. What kind of things could they hope for in engaging in a process of therapy and healing from sexual abuse?

SPEAKER_05 22:34

Such a good question. And as you say that and commenting about the four sessions, I'll take it back when I first started therapy, which was in 1993. And I, at that point in 1993, um, sexual abuse was just beginning to be spoken about. Domestic violence and sexual abuse were just beginning to be spoken about. And I can remember going to a therapist thinking, I I know I've experienced sexual abuse. I'll just go, I'll get this all fixed, I'll go for about three months, I'll be good, and then I'll get back to my life. And and that didn't happen. I think for someone coming in and beginning to open this up, it can feel very overwhelming. It can feel like opening up Pandora's box. And it can feel like, why did I do this?

Greg 23:38

And that feels important. Why did I do this? In my experience, walking with people in recovery and they're starting to do the deep work. How many people are surprised once they start engaging that the first thing they notice is I feel worse. You know, and you've got to feel worse before you can feel better because the coming to grips with how extensive the damage was that was done. Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:07

Most have figured out ways to adapt and cope. And those adaptations have worked until they stop working. And so when they stop working, that is usually what brings them into therapy. A relationship, a family, rupture with a spouse or a a sibling or with parents. And how I bring that up to them is I will ask, have you ever had physical therapy? And sometimes they'll say yes, sometimes no. And I'll say, Well, you know, if you've been in a major auto accident, let's say you've been hit by a tractor trailer and you're healing and you go through physical therapy, it is excruciatingly painful, but you get the function of your legs back. And so that word function is important and also the idea of getting a life. And what does it mean to come alive? What does abundant life mean?

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:19

Um, what does it mean to really experience the love, the delight of this God? And so I because I have a master's in theology too. So I bring that in and that's so important as well. You get freedom that you didn't know you had.

Greg 25:42

It's gotta be more than just I do this work so that I'll have more understanding.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah.

Greg 25:47

Because if that's the extent of it, then well, I think I would have, I think I was happier before I understood it. But if it's I'm doing this work so that I can actually live the life that I was created to live, that's a whole different ball game.

Stacey Oliver 26:02

I was thinking about our story, my story when we got into therapy. I shared some things with the therapist about pre-getting married, and then when we got married, that I didn't I couldn't make sense of. And she was like, Sounds like you might have been sexually abused. And so in talking to family, and this is a like a great grandfather and he's no longer here, but we lived with him for a summer, and I was the age that many others in the family were that we knew he abused. And so I don't remember it if it happened. I just think it makes a whole lot of sense. So I'm thinking about the perspective of like not remembering, but it impacted. And so when I told, you know, our therapist, she's like, Oh yeah, you know. And so I just I'm sitting here thinking about that. I don't think it was worse for me to hear because it kind of made sense. Like, oh, well, maybe that's why I'm not a weirdo or whatever.

Greg 27:02

Do you find that there's a different experience that clients have who explicitly remember versus ones who don't remember their abuse, but maybe suspect that it happened, like what Stacey was just saying?

SPEAKER_05 27:14

Yes. The ones that I think explicitly remember it, it's actually more work, I think, to be able to get down underneath because they remember what they remember, but then I also find there's a lot that they don't remember.

Greg 27:40

So it's just like the tip of the iceberg sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 27:43

Yes, yep.

Stacey Oliver 27:44

Good way of framing it. And I would I don't know, I was four when this would have happened. So like I don't remember before really going to Africa when I was nine. I I remember like from that point on, which kind of has always made me a little curious. Like, why don't I remember some things? That might explain even more that this really did happen. But yeah, it's I don't know. It's it's been hard. It's like, okay, I understand maybe that's why some things in marriage were hard. You still have to work through like the the the ways, the the relational things. Like the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the effect that it had, and I don't remember it. It's kind of like, mm-hmm. I don't know. So me to me, I mean it seems like if I remembered it, maybe it wouldn't be so hard, but I don't think that's true.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Well, remembering is remembering the narrative. And that's different.

Greg 28:36

That's not always very accurate, is it?

SPEAKER_05 28:38

No, it's true. No, it's it's it's not at all because your mind is not like a videotape. It doesn't record that way. And and you're not remembering the emotional experience behind.

Greg 28:56

You're remembering a time when you didn't have the capacity to abstractly or even accurately know what was going on, and then add into that people who were groomed and fed an intentional lie, and you got all of that stuff mixed together, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:14

And the research, there's so much research, re I'd say recent research, maybe in the last 20 years. Bessel Vanderkoolt, of course, is iconic in his book, The Body Keeps Scores. So listening to your body, but also understanding what do infants take in and how do they how do they communicate? And you know, if we think about communication itself, which I think a lot about, communication, it's only like 20% with the the words, right? And the data and the information. The rest of it is non-communicative in that you're looking at picking up facial muscles, you're listening to the cadence in the voice, you're watching how they sit. There's so much more that's communicated. And so they're learning all of that about infants to see, oh no, you know, if infants with attachment, you know, attachment theory, they're they're learning so much more. I think too, you know, as you were talking, Stacy, there's something about being able to connect the dots. It's almost like, you know, a thousand-piece puzzle. And you begin to put those pieces together and you go, oh wow, this makes sense. I and then you begin to recognize the patterns, the thoughts that have been in there.

Greg 30:53

When you were talking about the research that's that's getting into how much do infants pick up, that's making me think of neurosception, the polyvagal theory, and a lot of stuff that really over the last what 15 or 20 years has given so much more insight. Adam Young had an episode of Place We Find Ourselves where he talked about like what's going on when you're having a conversation with another person. You know, talked about right brain, left brain, and how, you know, you're picking up and even beginning to emotionally react to the cues before your left brain has even had a chance to translate what the person is saying. And so much of that, it makes sense that could go on before a child even has the capacity to form words, right? All they have to go on is whether or not they're being attuned to, whether they're they've got that gaze. So gosh, it makes so much sense. Everything that preceded the more overt abuse, right? Because sometimes by the time the overt abuse happened, there was so much neglect.

SPEAKER_05 32:00

Yes. Yes, yes.

Greg 32:02

Which is which is its own form of confusing because the other kinds is something that happened that shouldn't have, but neglect is I didn't get the good stuff.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

Oh right. I didn't get the nurturing. I didn't get anyone to be able to delight in me, to look at me, to help me figure out. I mean, that's what happens in a caregiver with the infant, is helping them to regulate uh with their emotional experience.

Greg 32:29

Yeah, I came into the world looking for someone looking for me, like Kurt Thompson says, and I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yes.

Greg 32:35

You know, that's what so many people are gonna have is their stories. And gosh, as we're sitting here thinking about it, Corinne, I'm just no wonder people avoid doing this kind of work. No wonder they don't even want to acknowledge what happened.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

It's painful.

Greg 32:51

It is.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

It's painful, and yet I don't know that they're aware of the pain that they've been living with until we get, until they start in therapy, and then I will say to someone, I imagine that there's some self-talk there, that you were stupid. Um, oh yeah, oh yeah. That's the answer I get. Oh yeah. Oh wow. Like the the self-talk is so critical, so judgmental. And they're not, they're not connected to how awful that is for them until they get a taste of goodness.

Greg 33:39

Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking before you said that, if you are the one who says, I bet you there was a voice or a message saying that you were stupid, I bet you that's a fear people bring in into therapy that, like, I'm gonna get all of the messages I believed about myself confirmed. And what if all those things I've been shaming myself with end up being true? So there's the one side of the coin, but then the other, I was thinking back to your analogy of physical therapy and going through that pain in order to get the functionality of your legs back. Well, what if they never had that functionality to begin with? You're describing something that it's not going back to. This is something that they've never experienced before. Yeah. So there has to be an element of faith.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

Yeah. Rebirth in trauma therapy. Being birthed. Yeah. Being being birthed. If they didn't get to um, what is that phrase? If they didn't get to first yeah, home plate. Home plate, yes. Yes. If they didn't get to that, they they don't know who they are. They don't understand, you know, they're not aware. I mean, I I talk a lot about an internal world. We have an external world that's out here when we relate with people, but we also have an internal world. And, you know, are we aware of our internal world and what's going on in there?

Greg 35:07

So you have had a lot of experience working with residents who live in a residential program for survivors and victims, people who've been rescued out of sex trafficking.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Correct.

Greg 35:19

And you've also worked with private clients who maybe were not trafficked, but who had sexual abuse. So, what are the common things that you experience in both of those contexts? And what are maybe answer that first and then I have another question.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

Such a good question. Childhood sexual abuse. It's it's there. And honestly, for the women that are in recovery at the wellhouse, it's a little bit easier to talk about the recent experiences of being beaten, um, being in a tractor trailer truck, transported across state lines, which you know, these are inhumane experiences, right? But it's far but it is easier for them to connect to that than to connect to the vulnerability of being a child and having something done to them. Because that vulnerability, there's an aspect within women who have been trafficked that they're wanting to hold on to some kind of control. Maybe they had control going into a room with a trick and keeping the eyes on where the weapon is, the gun is.

Greg 36:46

Their proximity to the door, things like that.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Yep. There's some element internally that they're able to experience a level of some kind of power and control, and that's survival. But children, children don't have that. And the other thing is, um, and we haven't touched on this, but dissociation. Yeah. And so that plays a big part for children that they simply escape in their mind.

Greg 37:20

Right, because fight isn't an option.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

No.

Greg 37:23

Flight isn't an option.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

No.

Greg 37:25

So just freeze and totally shut down, separate from their body is the only survival strategy that they have. It's just not, just not even the lights are on, but no one's home.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

I would look up at the corner of the ceiling and I would do my times table. Two times two is four. Two times four is eight. Two times eight is sixteen. And those types of adaptations or coping allowed them to escape the emotional experience.

Greg 37:58

And to survive it.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

And to survive it. Yeah. Wow.

Greg 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Yeah.

Greg 38:02

And so when you're working with people who have survived, because they're alive, they're not living their best life or their abundant life, but they're alive. They've made it to your office. They're sitting on the couch. What are some of the most joyful things that you get to experience as a therapist working with people who are willing to show up to that kind of pain and that kind of work?

SPEAKER_05 38:27

I would say the most joyful part of this work is watching them grow. There is a sense, like you said, of not even having a self. And so to in a way be birthed for them to find what they like that's important to them. Or when they take a big step, you know, and I'll usually say it's a baby step, lots of baby steps. But when they take a baby step and set set a boundary with a family member, huge. Yeah. It's so it's in a way, it's like watching your children grow. Yeah.

Greg 39:15

What about people who come in and you discern that they've got some anger towards God, but maybe they don't feel like they are allowed to acknowledge it or express it. I typed out a quote from Dan's book, you know, The Wounded Heart. And he said, genuine trust involves allowing another to matter and have an impact in our lives. For that reason, many who hate and do battle with God trust him more deeply than those whose complacent faith permits an abstract and motionless stance before him. Those who trust God most are those whose faith permits them to risk wrestling with him over the deepest questions of life. Good hearts are captured in a divine wrestling match. Fearful, doubting hearts stay clear of the mat. I mean, how much do you see that? And what do you see as the eventual outcome of people who allow themselves to wrestle with God? The questions like, where were you? How did you let this happen? Are you good? Do you exist? What do you what's on the other side of that?

SPEAKER_05 40:24

I generally model it first.

Greg 40:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 40:29

I will generally say, yeah, there's anger at the world and there's angry at God. God allowed this. Where were you? And sometimes I'll say, where in the hell were you guys? And if this is someone who professes to have a faith, you know, I'll bring in Jacob. Jacob wrestled. Yes. Jacob wrestled.

Greg 40:54

And you're never closer to him than when you're doing that, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:57

Right, right. And and so it's just emphasizing that that we can't even wrap our heads around the depth of the love that God has for us, that he allows us to turn our back on him, that he allows us to say, Yeah, I was in, I did, I led a support group many, many years ago in Virginia. And there was a woman there, and she said, I just want to tell God, I want to just hold up my middle finger to God. I'm like, Yeah. And and it's it's just sitting, it's just sitting and acknowledging it. It's not judging it, knowing, you know, and in in some some of those instances, I'll say, and God He knows your anger.

Greg 41:54

I imagine you're probably, for a lot of people, the first person who will hear them say things like that and not immediately correct them.

SPEAKER_05 42:05

I hadn't thought about that.

Greg 42:06

I bet you that's true.

SPEAKER_05 42:08

But yeah.

Greg 42:09

And what a gift to provide a safe enough place where someone can do something, can say something like, I want to flip God off, I want to flip him off, show him the middle finger. I want to tell God I hate him. I mean, how critical is it to have a place where you can say things that are okay, maybe they're wrong factually, maybe they're inaccurate, but how can we get close to them unless we're willing to be honest with them?

SPEAKER_05 42:34

And think about the depth of their faith. Think about their understanding of who God is as they go through that experience and and can say, where in the hell were you, God? And they can come through that and they can see God has never left. Think about their the depth of their faith. It just opens up internally such a space. And then I always I was gonna say the Holy Spirit. Um you know, I'm I'm big on the the Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in you, it's engrafted in you, it's part of you. So now talking about identity, right? What is our identity? Well, our identity is ourselves, but we also have this this this the Holy Spirit within us. And so I bring that in a lot. Yeah.

Greg 43:36

I'm looking at the clock and then good conversations go by really quickly. And I we can't thank you enough for being with us, Corinne. It's I think this may be the longest we've sat and just had an uninterrupted conversation, just the three of us. Uh and it's it's been a gift to us. I want to leave the people listening with something that that could be helpful. If someone who's listening, Is saying, yeah, that's a part of my story. I've never gotten any help for that. And I don't know where to go to get help for that. What would be a first step for somebody who's wanting to begin to acknowledge their abuse, their trauma, and seek help?

SPEAKER_05 44:17

Ask friends about therapy. Do they go to therapy? Is their therapist trained in abuse and trauma? And what do they know about sexual abuse? So that would be a good start.

Greg 44:36

People might find that more of the important people in their lives have similar stories that they never knew about.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

Yeah. Yep. And there's a lot of good therapists that are out there. And so it's it's finding one. Finding one where you feel again, pay attention to yourself. If this doesn't feel comfortable, pay attention to that.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Right. And kind of attune with yourself to what you're you're feeling. And then go on to somebody else. Try, you know, sit for three sessions, six sessions, and see if this feels like a fit.

Greg 45:16

Which I think is important because I mean, if you go to one session, you're just you're disoriented. You're just getting your bearings. And I know very few people are going to feel completely comfortable after one session.

Stacey Oliver 45:29

I think too, a lot of people that we interact with ask about, like, well, are they a Christian, like this therapist? And I say, I think the it's more important to have somebody, if they're especially if they're dealing with sex abuse, I think the therapist needs to be trained in those things.

SPEAKER_05 45:47

The tools are only as good as the craft person who's using them.

Greg 45:53

So talk to your friends. You might find that they have a lot more experience than you realize with their own therapists, and there may be somebody where you live. If you have trouble with that, you can do some research. If you have really tried and you've come up dry, you know, send us an email, info at awakenrecovery.com. We'll look up and maybe give some people in your area that you could try. With the advent of telehealth, I prefer being in the room, but it sure is nice to know that you don't have to be in the room. And you can get a very qualified provider who can help you work through your trauma no matter where you are. As long as you got an internet connection, you can get some help. Well, I'm really grateful to think about all the people that have gotten help working with you, Corinne. I mean, it's just you're you're so easy to talk to, and I can't wait for people to hear this and so thankful that you've been with us today.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

Well, I'm just honored to have been asked. And again, I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled beyond words that awaken that you all are here, the work that you're doing. I'm just thrilled. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Well, God bless you.

Greg 47:04

It's been a real pleasure having you. Come back soon.

SPEAKER_05 47:07

Thank you so much.