77 | Ross King: Grieving the Life That You Wanted

Nobody is out there searching for grief. None of us asks for it. But grief comes into our lives anyway. How do we experience and navigate grief in a way that not only doesn't destroy us, but actually helps us live more genuine, dependent, and connected lives?

Ross King is learning about all of this. And he doesn't want to.

For over 30 years, Ross has been writing and singing songs that have encouraged and challenged people of faith. He's always been one to say what's on his mind, not tip-toeing around difficult topics. But the past two years have taken him into deeper and more painful places than he ever imagined.

In 2024 Ross' wife Staci was diagnosed with cancer, and after almost a year of battling it, she passed away in August 2025. To say it rocked the world of Ross and their four kids would be a huge understatement. Ross questioned everything, sometimes in ways that were painful and uncomfortable to witness. But he's wrestled with God, genuinely. And wrestling automatically pulls us in closer to our "opponent."

In the midst of his continued grief, Ross is writing new music that invites listeners to walk with him and to ask important questions about what we believe. He says, "I don’t have answers, and the songs are raw and vulnerable and messy, but as I’ve started to share them, it’s been beautiful to see not only how others are comforted, but also how life-giving it is for me. I don’t have a 5-year plan. I’m just living day by day, trying to push back the darkness with a little bit of creative light."

#rossking #rosskingmusic #forwardandon #faithalone #thingsthatimafraidof #worship #worshipmusic #christianmusic #grief #staciking #suffering #faith #hope #joy #loss #connection #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation #healing

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Transcript

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Welcome And Why This Is Hard

Ross King 0:00

I've got to find joy. You know, I it it can't be that the way out of this is a bunch of better circumstances that I that I'm not guaranteed. There's gotta be an access to joy in the midst of all of that, or what are we doing?

Announcer 0:16

Welcome to What We Really Want. Conversations about connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:28

Hey friends, welcome to another episode of What We Really Want. Today is episode 77, and I really just can't wait for you to hear this conversation. It's a hard conversation, but it's so genuine and so important. I really hope that you'll stick with it all the way through to the end. Our guest today is Ross King, and that may be a familiar name to some of you, especially if you like worship music. Ross has been around for decades writing, recording, leading, and singing music that points people to Jesus. But lately, focus in life has been taken up by different things that we'll talk about. Ross has been living with grief for the most recent season of his life. This episode's called Grieving the Life That You Wanted. About two years ago, Ross's wife Staci was diagnosed with cancer. And in August of 2025, she passed away. So the last year has been a lot of Ross wrestling with fear and anger and grief and faith. One of the things that has become the most important to me in recent years is genuineness and just being real, being honest, not trying to hide the things that we're feeling or are curious about or are confused about. That can be pretty uncomfortable and awkward and messy sometimes, especially when we're in seasons of pain. And one of the things I've appreciated so much about Ross as I've kind of observed him from a distance over the past couple of years is that Ross is just putting out there what's going on in his life. His posts are not neat. They're not pithy. They aren't wrapped up with the bow. They're just expressions of the truth of a man who is wrestling through how can God be good if he took away my person? I don't want to walk away from my faith, but it's really hard to sit in it right now. Just so many different things. And that was really a lot of what we talked about. We got into some other things too, but I really wanted us to focus on what does connection feel like with myself? What does connection with God and with other people feel like when I'm walking through the saddest thing I've ever been through? Ross just beautifully spoke to that. I can't wait for you to hear because I think probably some of you listening are going through your own seasons of grief right now. We either have, are, or will go through seasons of grief. And so I hope that you'll take some heart, take some encouragement from a man who is seeking to find that himself. He doesn't have neat answers, but he's writing some beautiful music that's coming out of it. One of the songs that he makes a reference to in our conversation was one that had not released yet. But actually, on the day that this episode comes out, he just released the song this past Friday, and it's called Faith Alone. We're gonna let that be what transitions us into our conversation.

[Song] Faith Alone

Greg 3:29

This is Ross King. It's episode 77. It's called Grieving the Life That You Wanted.

Ross King 3:35

If you wanna know who you really are, see all that is hiding down in your heart, just pray that your life will get really hard and that ought to do it. If you wanna see what you really believe about God and the devil, then what it was between, just put yourself in a season that exposes your weakness. Try to get through it. If I ever really want the faith, there was always something else I could trust to keep me safe with your money health and run out of answers that you'll know if you have the faith to walk by faith alone. I'm gonna need a lot more grace if I'm gonna walk by faith alone.

Welcoming Ross King

Greg 4:44

Ross, I've been thinking for a while now, just what a blessing it would be to get to have a conversation with you. And I reached out to you last week and you got back with me immediately. And thank you so much. Thanks for just being here today.

Ross King 4:57

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. That it's probably a reflection of my lack of social life that got back to you so fast. Or maybe just right place right now. Don't take it personally because it, you know, but yeah, no, thank you. So I'm really I love I love talking to people and I love getting to tell my story, and I'm just honored that you would even ask me.

Greg 5:14

Well, my narrative is I struck while the iron's hot. I do not have an overinflated sense of self-importance. So it's smart. Well, Ross, I'm really looking forward to wherever this conversation goes. And I'm just curious for you, what do you really want out of our time talking today?

Ross King 5:32

I mean, on a super like selfish level, I want to seem cool and lovable and have the world think I'm great. But I guess I, you know, if I'm really going deep into my heart and my my sense of what the world is and all that, I I I want to I mean, I've been through something, I'm going through something really difficult. And I think we both know that when that happens, there's a lot of ways we can process it, and a lot of ways we hope that we're gonna process you. Maybe thinking if you think ahead, I wonder wonder what I'll be like if something like that happens to me. And and you hope that you'll be helpful to people, and you hope that your pain will have some kind of redemptive arc that makes life better or pain more manageable for other people, or points people to God or goodness, or what what you know make makes the world better better. So yeah, I mean, idealistically I would like to I'd like to believe that you and I talking would bring comfort to people, would tear down any kinds of walls need to be torn down in people's hearts and you know, maybe bring some healing.

Greg 6:39

I don't know that that's a lot, but I that's that that'd be my hope. I'm curious about something. You use the word processing. Are you processing life differently now than you were a couple of years ago, or processing it the same way? It's just the things that you're processing are a lot deeper and heavier.

Ross King 6:56

I I think it probably has to be at mostly A that I that I'm processing differently, only because the level of sort of earth, you know, if there's a scale of like how much this shakes a person's foundation, you know, like whatever happens to them, how much does it how much does it just kind of change the weather or change the climate or change the geography or any of that, right? And because because this is pretty big on that scale, you know, I I know I'm unwell. I know that there's ways in which I'm emotionally and psychologically unwell. And I know that I feel a different kind of tension. I I have a different threshold for stress. And some of that stuff's good, right? I I I'm actually I actually get get really stressed out a lot less than I used to. I just probably have a s a sort of a of a my my my everyday standard stress is probably a lot a lot higher than than it was, you know. And so I and I know I I know I'm I I know I probably fear unfortunately, I probably fear worst case scenarios a little bit more than I used to because I I'm living one. Yeah, you had one happen. Right. And so there's kind of that uh invincibility thing that you can have for for a lot of your life where you look at other people's lives and you you may not you may not like consciously say that'll never happen to me, but something in you says that, you know. And and I think once those those kind of uh worst case scenario type things, if what something like that does happen to you, I think it it it's impossible for it not to change, yeah, you know, to change that. And it also makes you, okay, well, I guess I can handle really hard things. Yeah. Right. So those are weirdly competing things, but I know I I know I am more scared at some level, and I'm also more like ready and and more able in some ways. And so certainly the signals that are coming into my life, good and bad, are gonna have are gonna be processed differently. Yeah. And even just psychologically, I'm sure if there was a therapist here or listening, they'd say that guy's, of course, he's processing it differently. His brain's been rewired by a massive trauma and grief, you know.

Greg 9:20

So I'm just I'm aware right now of the people who are listening who don't know who you are and don't know what you've gone through. Like we got pretty deep, pretty heavy, pretty fast. And for sorry, I jumped in there. No, no, no. I mean, so did I, asking you that processing question. I just for the benefit of those who aren't aware, I just want to name that the pain that you're and the trauma that you're referring to is about a year ago, you lost your wife of 27 years, Staci, to cancer.

Ross King 9:52

Yes.

Greg 9:52

We're gonna talk as much as you want to talk about that in a bit. And I just want to say that I'm feeling really weird about like even going back and talking about anything else because no, it's okay. Sometimes other things, when you've got walk through something like that, just feel superficial and almost not worth talking about. But I do want people to get to know you. And so at the risk of feeling like we're giving people whiplash by coming in hot and then kind of easing off of it, let's just say that's what we're doing and we'll we'll navigate through if that's okay.

Ross King 10:25

Oh, yeah, and it's fine. And I and I have to live in those worlds all the time, right? I have to, I have to be watching a funny show on Netflix and laughing and telling a story about my day that has nothing to do with the death of my wife. And at other times I'm deeply in that moment. So don't overthink that. It's fine.

Greg 10:43

Yeah, thank

A Life In Songwriting

Greg 10:44

you. Well, I've known who you were for a while, partially just because I used to be a worship leader. And you kind of find out who the songwriters, the semi-independents, you know, just there's names that you hear that aren't Chris Tomlin, but you hear, you know, you hear them often enough to say, oh, I recognize that guy. I recognize that that woman and their songs. And yours was one of those names that I was always kind of peripherally aware of. So I've known about you for a long time. You've been a songwriter, a musician, worship leader for over 30 years, and it's happened in several different contexts. There's a church that you were part of planning, you've been a live performer, you've written songs for a lot of other artists. What's been your favorite context for music?

Ross King 11:31

Songwriting without a without a doubt. I mean that that always was the most I felt I felt the the most alive, the most, you know, in my comfort zone or or whatever. I felt the most connected to God in it. I felt the most connected to people that I was singing to when I did that. Uh and when whenever I do that, and it's been the thing that I've probably evolved the most in, you know, and and and it's and it's paid the most of my bills and and it's you know, when I get kind words from people, it's usually about, you know, people that I don't know, you know, whatever. It's usually about that, you know. And if I have, I'm using air quotes for those who can't see it, and when I have fans, it's that that's what they are, you know. It's people who are are familiar with my songs. And so yeah, I I there's something really magical, you know, for me. Um I could, you know, I could go, I could talk way too much and be artsy and and and pretentious about it. Cause I just really, really love, love the art and the and the creativity and the in the process of writing.

Greg 12:39

Do you have I don't know if a favorite or kind of a handful of your songs that you just like? Man, I'm just really fond of those. That that's one of my favorites or some of my favorites, just of all the ones that I've written.

Ross King 12:53

Yeah, I mean, it's hard because there's the thing where you say, This one made me made like I can pay my bills because of because of this one, you know. And then there's ones that are like no one seems to care about, but really, but but really matter to your heart. And so I try to find the place where those things meet as often as I can if you know if I get that question. Yeah. And so the the big

[Song] Things That I'm Afraid Of

Ross King 13:15

one there would be a song I wrote about six years ago called Things That Afraid of, and it's just a song about depression, anxiety, and and and fear, and and the 23rd Psalm, all those things. When I am shaking in my heart's pounding, you always take me, make me lie down in peaceful fields where I can clear my head. Cause I get so overcome with anxiety, like there's an enemy living inside of me, like a mocker yelling out, telling lies to me. And I don't feel brave, but I know how to be good. Through the valley of shadows, and it scared me half to death. But show it me everywhere I go. So I don't kill me. My fear would surely kill me. If I didn't know the truth, the things that I'm afraid of, I'm afraid of you. It was really important for me in a in my working through some depression that I that I was having. And it is far and away the most bill-paying song I've I've ever written in terms of like I've had songs that other people cut, and someone did cut that song, but it mostly made you know did well for my career as an artist because it just it kind of more people heard that song than any song I had done, yeah, maybe ever. And and then it got me just, you know, when you write a song that people feel very connected to, they become real fans, and then and then there's something really cool that happens there where you you you know, there's an in you almost become their friend. Because I'm not famous enough to have, you know, thousands and thousands of fans. So you you you start to meet people who are really impacted by it and all that. So that that would be a big one. And and then honestly, just recently as I'm processing grief, there's lots of things I'm writing, some that some that people haven't even he haven't even heard heard yet that feel extremely important, you know, to me. And then I would say one more is a song called Love is a Hammer. It's a song I wrote about 10 years ago that is just about shame. And I was deep, I was working through some shame and and it and for me, most of my stories about songwriting are gonna be selfish in the sense that they were something I did to help me work through some idea, some some fear, some feeling.

Greg 15:40

And which tends to lead to some of the more authentic songs.

Ross King 15:44

Uh you would hope so, yeah. And and and I'll be honest, that that you know, that it that doesn't always lead to the most like commercially successful songs, but it but it always but you're right, it does it does lead to uh feeling really connected and and sincere. I I don't like bumping into songs of mine from a long time ago and thinking, I don't know if I mean that, you know, the way that I did, and and at I'm gonna do a concert, and if my if any fans are there, they're they're gonna want to hear it, and I don't know if I mean it, you know. Like I sincerity is a is a really high ideal for me as an as an artist and I guess as a person, and and so I I I I love it when when I can write something that feels completely like I mean it and and continue to mean it, you know, for years and years and years. Yeah. It always seems like those, it does seem like those create the best songs.

Greg 18:06

Well, for sure, there are some songs that do accomplish the both that you were talking about that are really true to what you were going through. And also, I'm just thinking about three other guys, and I think you probably know all of them pretty well, who have all been on the show. There's Andy Gullah and Jason Gray and Mike Donahy. And talking to all three of those guys, like knowing some of the autobiography has really helped me feel just connected to them as well as to the song. That kind of leads me to something that I told you I was gonna ask you. You talked about songs that people have connected to. And just that word connection, that's that's a part of the name of the

Why Music Makes Us Feel Seen

Greg 18:48

show. It's what this podcast is all about. And I found for me, and then for a lot of people, that music is a huge one of those things. And you said people connect to your songs. Like, what have you noticed about how music, or maybe your music specifically, helps create connections that are deeper than man, that was just a really cool song.

Ross King 19:09

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I I'm I'm unfamous enough that my biggest fans, I mostly know them, you know. I mean, a lot of my by I know them and you know, I've met them and stuff. And and I love that that there's a sense of someone comes and says to you, this one lyric really mattered to me. And and maybe you as the writer are thinking, I don't know if anyone's ever gonna notice this lyric or know what it really means or whatever, you know, and they will come and say this impacted me or it changed me or whatever. And and then there's just things like you know, different kinds of brokenness in people's lives that somehow, by some crazy miracle, your song brings some kind of you know, wound healing to that. Yeah, it helps them feel seen, right? Seen and not alone, yeah. And of course that makes sense to me as a listener too. I feel that way about other people's songs, you know. But it's you just forget that it could happen to you. And and and I just there's been times when I've you know just got gotten an email, a really kind email from someone or a social media DM or whatever, and they've just been so kind and so thoughtful to say, I'm gonna take some time out of my day to tell you this mattered to me. You know, or maybe they show up in like a crowdfunding campaign or something and give a give a bunch of money or what just you know, whatever, and they say this I'm doing this because what you wrote really mattered to me. And look, we're used to that because we live in a society full of media, but think about that, that you made something for you, for you, or maybe God, or for your friend, or whatever. In the privacy of your own mind, you made something, and somehow, like someone hundreds or thousands of miles away who has a different story and a different background, a different upbringing and different beliefs, and all that says, This made my life better. Yeah, but they may be thousands of miles. It's almost impossible.

Greg 21:11

Yep. They may be thousands of miles away, but they know what fear feels like, and they know what shame feels like, you know. And two of the songs you mentioned that are the most special to you are about fear and shame. And and people know what that and then so many times somebody like you writes a song and they're like, that's if I could write a song, that's how I would describe what I've been going through. And they just feel right.

Ross King 21:36

I I had a I had a thing that happened a few years ago. I had like a little viral moment with some song that I would I wrote, and like I don't do this a lot, but I wrote something like the next day I posted like a little video of it. You know, usually I let stuff sit, but I was just feeling like this there was a cultural moment I was kind of speaking to. And it sort of went viral, like for me, like not really viral, but viral in terms compared to my um to my normal. And I there was a friend of mine who who was pretty into like he ran a record label and was a bandaged artist and stuff, and was just kind of a really smart finger on the pulse kind of a thinker, you know, with culture. And I and I just he was contacting me, hey, you're having you know, you're having a moment, you know. I was like, I was like, what do you think this is? You know, and he said, Give me a day. And he and he he texted me back or called me back the next day and was like, I read through the comments of everything on your feed and everything that people had reposted that I could find. And he said, What I saw so much was people saying, This is what I've been trying to say. Yeah, you know, and then they would repost it, you know. Hey guys, listen to this. This, this, this guy, Roth, this is what I've been trying to say to you. Yeah. And I just thought that was so interesting. I'd never even thought of that. But but it is such an important, you know, art and and artists bringing language, you know, bringing something a little bit more identifiable and concrete to the mess of feelings and and and ideas, you know, that that's a really beautiful and like privileged thing to get to do. I mean, that that I feel I feel so happy that I get that I'm able to do some of that.

Greg 23:15

That's really cool when you have people that are that far away and otherwise disconnected from your life who offer those small connections. Uh it makes me kind of interested in like with that going on, uh I mean, I know you've got probably your rhythms of when you're you kind of make time to to write songs and kind of go into that creative space, but I imagine you've also got kind of your daily rhythms too, just your routines, the stuff you got to get done. And how how do those kind of connections we've just been talking about with people who resonate with the songs that you write? How does that hit you, like when you can contrast it or compare it to just the everyday connections that you have with the people who are normally a part of your life that you see and talk to a lot?

Ross King 24:03

Well, lately I'm less connected than I need to be, just because my life is really busy for those who don't know the, you know, the my wife passed away and we and I'm solo

Connection Gets Harder After Loss

Ross King 24:12

dad, you know. So I got four kids and three of them are here are here at the house. And and you know, so I'm I'm really busy just with, you know, in in the first year after you lose a spouse, there's all kinds of things you have to sort of do to to figure out life. And you know, you got to go into Amazon and Apple and and make sure you're the administrator of the accounts and you've got to get all the passwords figured out and you gotta figure out who your eye doctor is and all these things that husbands all the time don't know. And so I'm less connected to people than I than I would like to be, but I would I want to believe that my connections with people are in some way similar to the way I do my songwriting. You know, I mean I in in I want to be consistent in the in the sense that I want authenticity and vulnerability and honesty and encouragement, you know, be making beauty. I want that to all be part of my everyday life, right? And and I tend to be kind of an annoyingly dramatic, artsy communicator too. Like I, you know, I will, especially since my wife died, I will, I will tell some friend on a random text in the middle of a Wednesday a bunch of nice dramatic things about them just because I I I get in my feels and think, you know, gotta you gotta say what you need to say to people. This just hit me, and I need to make sure I, you know, so a lot of times my friends are probably like, okay, here go here goes Ross. He's on a, he must be on a having a little moment, and he's telling us, you know, telling me how he feels, and I don't know how to respond.

Greg 25:45

Well, and thank you, thank God. You know, yeah.

Ross King 25:48

No, I and I don't have any any any regrets about it. It's just that that I that I I know that for people who are getting to know me, because I even have new new friends now, you know, because I'm my life's different and you know than it was. And and and and some of those people are like, you know, what is this guy doing? You know, I I've just always not always, but uh for many years I've been the kind of person who was okay with awkward moments and was okay, you know, making sure, well, was sort of compelled to talk about the elephant in the room. And and, you know, I I've always, you know, for most of my adult life been that person who, if I'm in a group of people and there's a tense thing happening and some someone in that group feels like they're hurting, I I would either privately pull them aside and say, what's happening, or yeah, hopefully, hopefully in a gracious way, it'd say, hey, real real quick, can we stop? What's what's going on? What you know, are you okay? You know, I've just always been like that. And for better or for worse, I I've sometimes probably hurt people's feelings or or done that poorly, but but I'm saying I I want to be kind of poking at things in life and in music. You know, and and I tell people all the time when I'm doing like concerts, I I say, if you hear a question in a song, if you hear me asking like a question, because a lot of my songs have questions, that's a question I still I'm still I'm working on it. I don't usually write a question and then and and then a month later get it all figured out and then keep singing a song with the question, you know. And if I do, I'm honest. But I I I'm kind of the same person in my song that I am in life. And maybe everyone's that way, but I I just feel very convicted that that's I don't know. I I I'm not good at faking it. My heart's on my sleeve a lot. And and again, for better for better or for worse, I just I I I want authenticity and you know, dealing with what's in front of me as as honestly as I as I can.

Greg 27:40

It feels like, to me, anyway, it feels like for better. Because when you talked about getting in your feels and and calling people up and doing that, even if they're like, oh, that's weird. Or or even like uh one of your videos that I saw a week or two ago, I think you posted it longer ago than that, but it was just you talking about this concept of people who care saying things like, I'm here with you. And and you're like, Well, no, you're not. I mean, I like I know what you mean, and I know, and I appreciate the sentiment, but like there was somebody who was with me for 27 years. So I I when you say you're with me, like I'm aware of how much time I'm by myself. And that kind of stuff makes people feel awkward, but it's I think it's just important because whether it's the good, the bad, or the ugly, it's showing this is what not shoving down the things that I'm feeling are. And and I'm finding some people that I can just be raw in front of. And, you know, you're probably not exactly the same way with every single person that you encounter, but to have some people that you can just be unfiltered with is pretty important. Yes.

Ross King 28:50

Oh, for I I don't know that I could do life without that. I mean, and and that, and part of that is why I'm not probably as social as I was, is that whatever effort, well, I mean, I'm I have less margin for it, but but whatever effort would have to be applied to it, I've just found that I don't want to be cynical, but I've found that building new relationships like that is difficult. Yeah. You know, building new, fully transparent relationships is really hard. And some people just aren't good at it. And you don't want to, I don't judge them for it and I don't want to force them into it, but but some people just don't know how to do that, and and I don't, and you know, and I don't fault them for it. But I but I it's harder for me. So I tend to be very devoted to and connected to my friends that I already know that I can do that with. It is hard.

Greg 29:37

Yeah, it it is hard. And I'm just thinking about just something, it it's very different, but the way that you just described it, I really it took me back to 17 years ago when Stacey 's and my life changed when my addiction was exposed and everything blew up. And like in a moment, about 95% of the people that we had connection with were gone, you know, because I was in a church and then I wasn't there anymore. And that was so, that was such a large proportion of my world that when that changed, it's like, you know, the vast majority of the people in my life now have been in my life 17 years or less. And and God's been really kind that there were some people that I knew before that who have come back around and come back into my life. And our relationship is a lot more genuine because I don't have things getting in the way. And in some cases, neither do they because they've been through their own life blow up. But it is hard feeling like, man, if I want to go really deep, like, do I really have it in me to start all over again? Or am I gonna pick a select few that that I can really count on and and not try to have a ton, but just try to go really deep with the ones that I've got.

Ross King 30:52

Right. I there's a balance there of trying to figure out a way to make sure your life is welcoming to those who are who who might need it, and maybe you wouldn't reach out to them, but they're trying, you want to be open to that and having enough you know, guardedness and parameters to know that you can't do that with everybody and and and you can, you know, and from and especially right now, again, my life, I I don't want it to be like a like an excuse to be distant, but I just I don't have capacity for for for a lot.

Greg 31:21

If it's okay, I'd love to give you the opportunity to talk about Staci for a few minutes. You know, you've you've used the word to describe the

Life With Staci Before Cancer

Greg 31:29

past couple of years of your life several times, and the word is brutal. I I can't imagine well, I can only imagining is all I can do to think about what that's been like. And I yeah, I I just it's been about a year since she passed away. And I would just love to hear more about her because most of what I heard about her is in the is in the context of your grief. But what was life like before that?

Ross King 31:56

Well, first, thank you for asking that. And I mean, I don't, I won't say people don't, but but I but I mean I mean her her friends do, and I, you know, but but thank you. Not not a lot of strangers or new friends ask me that. But Staci and I, it wasn't perfect, you know, and of course I don't want to do that thing where after someone dies, you make them to out to be some kind of perfect he hero or our love to be that, but we really, really were best friends. And I really liked her and she really liked me, and and we would say, Oh gosh, how how would we ever make it if one of us dies? You know, we would say that kind of thing a lot because we just so enjoyed each other's company and and she was really, really smart. We our kids are adopted, and when that became our story, she got extremely studious at learning about early childhood trauma and trauma in the wound and brain science. Attachment, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She's amazing you know, and so she could do very good like neurological therapy, you know, for like a lay person. She could, she could, she was fluent in a lot of that kind of stuff. And but she was also really funny and very much of uh like a like an internal processor, whereas I'm a verbal processor, so that was that was a really cool fit. And and she she deeply loved tradition, and she was an idealist, you know, so she was always kind of like there were always things, chalkboards and things on the wall with like creeds and and mottos that she wanted, you know, our family to there. There's a there's a chalkboard still in our kitchen now with her handwriting from before she passed about these are the things that are important to the kings, you know, to to our family. And there's all these sort of ways of viewing the world and being being in the world. And and you know, she just she organ she was way more left brain organized administrative than than I was. Her brain had a had a color-coded calendar with all the days, you know, marked and all the hours marked, and mine does not. And she was just such a you know, I needed her, you know. The the the the thing that people don't you know, I of course I want people's empathy, but the thing that that I I could say to to people who who who might know someone who is a widowed person is everyone in the life of the of the person who died is sad, all of them. And you don't want to compare their sadness, you know. I mean, you know, but but if they have kids or parents or a spouse, those people are all sad in a way, siblings in a way that can feel kind of equal. But the problem with the spouse is that their life got practically harder in addition to the emotional loss. Right. So, like, you know, if if you're a a friend or a sibling or a parent, it's very sad for you. But for the spouse and usually for the kids too, uh, our lives got harder, like actually just harder because she filled practical gaps. She did really, she was really good at things that that are that were rhythms of of our life that have now been broken that'll never be fully like they were. And and it's funny because I don't I don't know that we were codependent emotionally, but we were codependent functionally, right? Yeah. I I needed, I needed her. And we'd set up a system that that needed both of us. And and that's not to like deromanticize it or make her like a like a cog in in a machine. It's me saying as a person, she was real good at stuff, like really just good at things, and would look at a a a void or or a gap or a deficit and say, How will I meet that? You know, and she adjusted so much more in our marriage to like, you know, meet deficits than than I ever did. I I just was the artist who kept doing his artist thing, and she would see, okay, this is a flaw, this is a this is something that needs work. It's not necessarily my my natural area, but I'm gonna learn to learn to do that, or I'm gonna learn to understand that, or learn to be fluent in that, in in in in the the the language of that. And she would just do it. And I mean, that just that just impressed me to no end, you know. And I could talk for hours, but that those are some things, you know, also beautiful and and a worshiper and love Jesus and you know, easy to talk to and a magnet for people and had a laugh that exploded and people laughed along with with her, you know. Lots of things.

Greg 36:25

I'll just tell you where where my mind is going as I've been listening to you these last few minutes, because there's a a question I I talked with you ahead of time about asking just about what have you noticed about your connections, you know, your important relational connections since she died. But I I I kind of want to ask it in a little bit of a different way. I I'm thinking about how you relate to yourself. I'm thinking about how you connect with God, how you connect with your kids. And the thought that hit me is there's something that's very individual about how I relate to myself and to God and to my kids and to my friends. And but I don't know that it can, when you're married to someone for that long, that it can be completely individual. I I would imagine that having your partner, because you were describing a partnership, not a codependent relationship. I mean, a part when when your partner is not there anymore, like I think I would realize that even in the way I felt like I was individually relating to God, her influence is there. And how I'm relating to myself, her influence is there. What's that been like for you noticing just kind of what those important connections are like for you now?

Ross King 37:45

I mean, if that's if you want to get into like when I use the word brutal, that's that's the probably the most brutal thing is that I I knew

Identity After Losing Your Person

Ross King 37:55

me after 27 years as me related to her. And my favorite media, my favorite memories, my favorite hobbies, my favorite places in the home, you know, my favorite night of the week, whatever, all of it had her attached. Yeah. Even, you know, to the point where we we didn't do a lot after we moved here, we we moved here about about 10 years ago and we lost a lot of community when whenever we did, and that's a whole other you know, conversation. But we pressed in to each other in the absence of that. And you know, I any grievers that you have that are listening to this will immediately resonate with this, but a big thing in the grief world is that you you don't the other person died and something about you died, and you don't know who you are now, you know. And you know, there's even the do I like this person that I am now? You know, do I I like that guy, you know, that Ross with Staci had a really, really anchored, sort of tethered, tempered, governed way of thinking doing the world because she would, you know, adjust, help me to to adjust, you know, in various ways and situations and sometimes consciously, sometimes just by her presence, you know. And I'm not I don't have that anymore. And so I'm just you know, tossed by the waves and and way too easily. And and I mean I this isn't a cry for help or anything like that. I mean, I have a therapist, but I don't know if I like this guy. I'm still learning to like the person I am now because I I don't I don't she brought so much goodness uh to me and out and pulled so much out of me and spoke into and and and tempered so much of the rough edges and and the and the brokenness. And I'll have that. And okay, you were you were on staff at a at a conservative, whatever, you know, sort of Bible is church. So you will so you you you will get this. But in the youth group, they tell you, you know, to love Jesus more than you love anybody. And you kind of think that's not possible, you know.

Greg 40:18

At least I did. I didn't, I I kind of didn't buy it. And I'd love I'd love to be able to find the place where that's ex something I'm experiencing.

Ross King 40:26

I got I gotta tell you, I I wish I'd listened better because I loved her more than I loved God, and not because I was idolatrous or what you know, it I just she's gonna be like, you weren't you weren't trying not to love God. She's wonderful, yeah. Yeah, she's right there in front of me in the flesh, you know. It would, it's really hard. And and I needed her too much. And and even I became fully connected, you know, they uh uh the two bla two shall become one and all all that stuff, you know. Um and now that's you know completely severed. And I gave so much of myself into that, yeah, that when she left, she took some things with her that are me. And and I don't know how to get them back, or even if I got them back, what I'd do with them because they don't, they, they, they're tied to her. And and you know, again, I'm not I don't want to be like prescriptive or like I'm some kind of like an expert, but if you are out there and you have someone in your life, you're listening to this, someone in your life is is is grieving at this level, the the loss of someone as close as I was to my wife, trust me, they don't know how to feel about themselves. They don't know how to love or even receive or welcome themselves, and they are really, really uneasy in a lot of situations that used to be very normal for them.

Greg 41:54

And that's just what you've learned so far in a year. I mean, the you when you talk about prescriptive, uh I'm very aware right now of the difference in perceived passage of time for the person who's going through it, and then the people who are around, but not, because it'd be very easy to say, well, man, Ross, you've had a whole year, you know, how's that been? And it's like, holy crap, it's just been a year. Like, I'm just starting to figure out, you know, whether I like the guy that's left and what that's gonna look like.

Ross King 42:28

And and well, and the first year is so full of what we all call in our world firsts, you know, the first, first, this kid's birthday, first anniversary, first Christmas, first, you know, whatever, that you aren't even able to do a lot of it. Right. You know, I and and I even think you also spend a lot of time grieving the life that you wanted, in addition to grieving the person. So that your mind gets distracted into those worlds where you can end up having almost like a I'm gonna say selfish, but I but I mean like passively selfish, not not bad, but you can kind of have a selfish grief where it's like, I had a life I wanted, I had a life I counted on, I had a life I was aiming at and investing in. And I sure saw dreaming longer than this. Yes, and and and now I'm living a completely different kind kind of life that that I didn't predict and I didn't plan for. And I and I wasn't even like uh you know, wasn't like making whatever fire drill that you have set in place, it's not the same as the fire. And most of you, most of us don't do a fire drill for this kind of thing. So that's definitely uh it's very uh unsettling and and and it's identity shaking, and it you know, it just makes you feel you're already off because you're grieving, but she makes you feel more off because you think, is everyone noticing that I I'm not me? Is everyone looking at me thinking, what's wrong with them? You know, no, they're not, but but you feel so different. That's uh the shortest answer I could give you.

Greg 43:57

So yeah, I'm I'm just I'm very aware right now. This is not one of those conversations where there's any any sort of bow to be placed on top of it. Sure. And I really I'm I'm really grateful, Ross, just that you're not presenting it that way. You're not trying to, oh, but you know, this is what I've learned or this is where I've found joy. I mean, I'm sure that joy has shown up a little bit, you know, at least yeah, but but it's like now in year two, this is probably realistically the first opportunity to even discover what normal's gonna look like. And so there's just still so much that's got a question mark of of how it's gonna be. And even as you've shared that with no bow on top, it just makes me feel like I I imagine so many other people who are walking through similar things who don't have a bow on top of theirs either, just knowing that they're, you know, it feels alone sometimes, but they're not the only one walking through it. And and I'm just so grateful for you sharing that.

Ross King 45:01

Well, and and and and I'll say this I there are people all over the world right now whose lives, if we were inserted into their lives for just a just a moment and could see the world through their situated eyes, that we would think this is the worst life a person can have. You know, people in in impoverished countries, people in war, you know, torn countries, people who've faced, you know, generations of of subjugation and and abuse and trafficking and all that stuff, right? And there are people. Who who live those lives and they don't see a way out. And they might live the entirety of their life with not with not only that situation, but the fear and psychological pressure of that situation on them. And a lot of times you see these people somehow through, you know, on the internet or something, and you and you and you're able to see some joy in their lives or whatever, you know, or at least some perception of of joy. And what I'm going through is nothing like that. But I do sometimes say, what if this is just my life? You know, I'm not my wife didn't pass away when I was 30 or 40. I I'm not, you know, a young man. And uh this might just be my life, that I am without the person I loved and thought I would be with till I was old, really old. And maybe in a higher level of stress or or unpleasantness than I ever thought would be my my sort of you know a baseline. I've got to find joy. You know, I I it it can't be that the way out of this is a bunch of better circumstances

Finding Joy When Circumstances Stay Brutal

Ross King 46:38

that I that I'm not guaranteed. Yeah. Right. And I think that and and there's there's something I don't like being I don't like being the person saying this. I wish I want someone else to tell me this, who's living this, but but there's got it there's gotta be a an access to joy in the midst of all of that, or what are we doing? Yeah, right, because you know, there's a song that I wrote that I'll put out at some point called Faith Alone. It's basically saying, like, I'm not sure I've ever really walked by faith. I've like walked by faith plus money, or faith plus who I can call, or faith plus status, or faith plus privilege, or faith, whatever, right? And we say by faith, by faith, but but at the end of the day, my joy, my hope, my sense of security is often in something else. And I only was able to arrive at this realization that maybe I wasn't walking by faith when everything, not even everything, because I still got stuff, right? I'm still sitting in this nice room with my guitar back down. I've still got a few things, but everything that I, you know, all the big things suddenly were gone. You know, I've, you know, money couldn't solve this problem, there was no health uh answer to this problem, you know, whatever. There's no social answer to this problem. Suddenly I'm stuck with God, can you help me? And if we don't, if there's not a way to get to joy in that, we this whole thing's a sham, right? And we have we have to, whatever your your religious leanings are, if you can't find some kind of joy in a circumstantially joyless thing, if we can't transcend that, and I'm not saying I'm doing that. I'm not saying I'm doing that. I'm saying that's that's what sort of burns in me is I'm hearing that you want to do that. Yes, and and that, and that my daily rhythms, you know, like you were saying, you know, are often about that. That's often my daily rhythm is how can I extract mine, dig up, whatever, create whatever, some joy.

Greg 48:36

Yeah.

Ross King 48:36

Or at least some, how can I plow out a a landing strip in a field for the joy plane to land in in my life, right? And and that that's a lot of that's a lot of what my energy goes toward.

Greg 48:48

Well, and it feels like in a way that you've channeled some of that energy of what you've been talking about into a song that you just released mid-August

[Song] Forward And On

Greg 48:57

2026. It's a song called Forward and On.

Ross King 49:00

You told me not to let my heart be troubled. As if that's just some easy thing to do. And I tried so hard to guard my heart, but I was not strong enough. The trouble made it through. You told me to not fear God. I'm trying, but I can't stop catastrophizing in my head. And I'm begging you to make me brave enough to not break down, not give up, not yeah. I have fought a thousand battles, lost as many as I've won, and I wish I could stay. I'm proud of all the punches that I've thrown. I run out of faith, a dream, and can't stop grieving. All that's gone, and where it all went wrong. But it can't go back, the only path is forward and on.

Greg 50:14

This is not like forward and on, like shake it off, or you know, just this is when when you when you're hearing, when I'm hearing you over the last 45 or 50 minutes talking about what the last two years of your life have has been like, then to me, getting back to the whole connecting through songs, like you more than most people I know have earned the right to be listened to when you say this is what moving forward looks like for me. You know, what what was it like getting getting that song out of your heart and your head and onto paper and then recorded and released? Like, how do you how are you feeling about it now that it's out? Because I know you've probably spent a lot of time thinking about it, preparing for it, and now people are listening to it. How is that for you?

Ross King 51:06

Well, let me say to be because I always want to be this, be this guy, because I'm a songwriter, so I know how it feels to be left out. Uh, there were three other guys. Basically, I've always written my artist music mostly by myself and then brought it to like producers or other writers to kind of hone it, you know, some sometimes. Yeah. But the the main thing was me. Sometimes sometimes the whole thing was me. Yeah. And and in this season, I knew if I go down and this room is in the basement of our house and there's no natural light in this room or anything. I and I knew if in this season I came down here and started trying to write songs by myself, I wouldn't be able to do it. And I might even want to, you know, do something bad, you know. So so I I I went to some friends who I've worked with a lot, Ben Backison, Mark Campbell, met another guy named Josh, and we we all kind of started creating together some media, video, and whatever. And I just went in and said, here's where I am, here are the feelings, and the forward and on chorus and a lot of the words were already there. And I was like, I have some words, I have some whatever, I need to make this, you know. But here's my thought is guys, I want this to feel. I told him this will have 80% of these lyrics are gonna be doubtful, fearful, angry, sad, grieving, and 20% are gonna be hopeful. But I want the music to be the opposite. I want the music to feel aggressive and hopeful and fist pumping and and sort of like um like motivating. And and I'm gonna kind of hide this very, very sad, the majority of the lyrics, these very heavy lyrics in there so that the passive listener who doesn't really know what's going on, just hears a fist-pumping anthem of, yeah, keep keep going. But the griever, the the person in deep pain realizes all right, he's he's speaking to me and inviting me into this. And this is me being my pretentious artist guy, right? But the is yeah, this guy's inviting me into this feeling of you know, giving the finger to darkness, you know, and we we're going to push against this. We have to, because for me, I don't have a bunch of like forward and on feelings in my heart. I'm writing so that I might, you know, sing and and get closer, get closer to that or move in that direction. This is what I want and what I desire, right? But it's not and and I can get there, you know. But I'm writing it more as a way, you know, to process, continue to process and continue to move forward into those feelings. Yeah, it's got a real aspirational feel to it. Yeah, thank you. And so to answer your question, sorry, I gotta I took a long way around there, but I I'm usually very nervous about who all's listening and how many streams it's getting and and and all of that, because all that matters to my bottom line and you know, whatever. And I just haven't cared near near as much because I'm getting so many like personal notes and comments saying, thank you, thank you, thank you, or or you know, I feel seen or I I feel connected to this, or here's I'm sending sending this to my friend who's in this very difficult situation. That and I've always been blessed to get those kinds of notes. But they were, if I'm honest, those things were all sort of secondary in my mind to yeah, but that and a quarter will get me a piece of candy. You know, I I I wanted yeah, I wanted that, and I also needed to make to pay the bills, you know, which is still true. But I've I now I know this kind of currency, you know, this kind of currency of of being connected and pulled into and and and having your you know heart kind of acknowledged is so to for me, it's massively important. And I, you know, and my algorithm would prove this, you know, I'm grief, grief, grief is you know, my whole thing. Because I go on these little things and someone says something about grief. I'm like, oh, thank you. You're saying what I, you know, yeah. So I'm in that same place. So for me right now, it's extremely satisfying. Yeah, and it's a little also a little bit exhausting too, you know, because I sort of wanted my world, you you put out a song and think your your life's gonna be better because you put out a song and it's not, but so there's all those feelings but mostly I'm extremely happy and happy is probably the wrong word, but just satisfied. Yeah, and and I just feel like a like a piece and a uh something, you know, made I made something, we made something that matters. And gosh, that's incredible, right?

Greg 55:27

It is. And as we're beginning to pull this to a close, I mean, the the thing that's popping up in my brain is just this mental image of an ampersand.

Making Something Beautiful And Staying Alive

Greg 55:37

In in the world in which we live, it it's just so rare that it's just one thing going on. It's this and it's also that, you know, and and even like the Bible says that for the Christians, we grieve, but we don't grieve as those who have no hope. But also, it's important not to realize that we don't hope without grief either. And the the this is not the way it was supposed to be. I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel confused. I think that to have a conversation like this one where we have spent probably more time inviting people to consider grief than is normal for them. I just think that there's something that's really healthy about that. And and it makes me really grateful that you're willing to share yours with me and with with us. Thank you.

Ross King 56:26

Well, and I look, if I don't want to waste this, you know, there's the only thing sadder than this happening to me is if I just nothing beautiful or good or redemptive came from it. And I don't say that lightly, like like I would ever be okay. And it's not a trade-off. Yeah, it's just that if this, you know, I I say this a lot. Like I would rather have worse, worse songs, and I would rather have less closeness to God and all that, and just have my wife back, if I'm honest. But this is my life now. Yeah, this is what happened, and so I I have to make choices and make effort and and and push my heart toward beauty and and redemption and continue, you know, not quitting, right? That you know, pe people will people love to tell grievers how good a job that they're doing, you know. And I think a lot of us like to laugh and go, what do you as opposed to what? Like just quitting, like what do you, you know, you're just you're like making making me a hero for showing up, like just you know, and and I appreciate that, but but for us, a lot of times it's like I don't know, you know, I I'm I need to to to do things that matter just to just to stay hopeful, you know. I I posted something to n today that on my my socials about you know these people who a lot a lot of artists like to, you know, they'll they'll do a post where the song is playing and and there's a little caption and it says, if you lost a blah blah blah, or if you feel judged by this or that, or if the church has hurt you, I wrote this song for you. Okay. And I just said on my thing, I said, I I I didn't write this for you.

Greg 58:04

Yeah.

Ross King 58:05

I I didn't. I wrote this for me because I thought I was not gonna make it if I didn't.

Greg 58:08

Yeah.

Ross King 58:08

Like it's how now it now it's out there, and I hope I hope you like it. And it is for you now. Yeah, you're invited to co-sign on it, but I wrote it for me. I didn't, I wasn't thinking of you. I wish I wish I had been, but I wasn't. I was thinking of me and I and and my kids and and deep sadness. And so I wrote to just try to push back against my own darkness. I wasn't thinking, will I change people's lives? Will I change the world? Will I move the needle on anything? I was thinking, how do I make it through Tuesday?

Greg 58:36

Well, Ross, thank you for thank you for grieving and mourning honestly, and and and just for the ways that you've chosen to allow people to see it and to experience it with you. And really am thankful for this conversation and whoever is gonna listen to it that is gonna be however they need to be encouraged by it. I I believe it's gonna happen and I hope that it does, whether we get to hear about it or not. Yeah.

Ross King 59:02

Just and I can I just say just real quick that my this is my pitch, is that this is what I'm gonna be doing for a while now. And I don't people don't make a lot of money off music. So this isn't a this isn't a big pitch for you guys for people out there to

Invitation To Connect And Closing

Ross King 59:13

like, to like make me rich. But I this is what I'm writing now. This is what I'm doing. And and I want to be connected to people who who are experiencing this so that I can better do it. You know, a lot of my writing now isn't just my stories, it's stories I'm starting to see or or commonalities I'm seeing with other people who have this story. So I actually want, I mean, you whoever you are out out there, please go find me on the socials and and talk to me. You know, let's I I want to know about this. I don't and I want to be helpful if I can be in in the artistic space.

Greg 59:47

I think there's a pretty limitless audience out there. There's a lot of people hurting, and and I just hope that they find you and that they find your music. Gosh, I just can't wait for people to hear this. Thanks for taking some time. Thank you for having me, Greg.