67 | Kristen Jenson: The Ability to Make a Good Choice

Parents raising kids today face challenges different from any other generation before. Technology is expanding and changing more rapidly than ever, and dangerous and harmful content hunts for young eyes. 

Kristen Jenson has a mission: to help equip parents to prepare their kids. When kids know what is out there, how it is harmful, and what to do when they're exposed, they'll be safer, healthier, and more resilient. No one can fully prevent their kids from seeing porn or other harmful content, but they can make sure their kids know what to do when they see it.

Kristen is the author of the book series Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, which just released a Girl's Guide edition. She is also the founder of Defend Young Minds, an organization providing training and resources to help parents and caregivers more effectively teach and prepare their kids.

#kristenjenson #goodpicturesbadpictures #defendyoungminds #parents #parenting #pornography #connection #vulnerability #recovery #grace #gospel #transformation

Kristen's Good Pictures, Bad Pictures books (Amazon)

Defend Young Minds website

"My Kid Saw Porn...Now What?" SMART Plan guide

Books (Defend Young Minds website)
DYM on Facebook
DYM on Instagram
DYM on X (formerly Twitter)
DYM on LinkedIn

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

When Kids Get Caught Off Guard

Kristen Jenson 0:00

When I'm caught off guard, I don't do very well. I'm not one of these people that can think on their feet very well. And children, how are they gonna deal with this if no one's ever given them a heads up and let them know what to do?

Announcer 0:14

Welcome to What We Really Want Conversations about Connection. Settle in and get ready for a great conversation. Let's talk about what we really want.

Greg 0:27

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of What We Really Want. Today's number 67, and we're really excited about the guest. It's Kristen Jensen, whom we met 10 years ago, and many of you are familiar with her name. If you have young kids, probably, because she is the author of the book series known as Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. And they keep adding different versions of the books to help parents prepare their kids for a world in which they're going to be exposed to harmful content online. This episode's called The Ability to Make a Good Choice. You know, one of the things that I think is so helpful is that these books kind of are at the intersection of parents who know that they need to engage in preparing their kids, but they don't really know how to. I know that you talked a little bit about our grandson and how our daughter and son-in-law, I think, have done a lot better job with him than we did with our kids in terms of just speaking plainly and demystifying those conversations.

Stacey 1:28

Yeah, for sure. Like you said, we didn't do as good with our kids, but have had, I think, good conversations and one of them being real honest about like, yeah, you waited too long to talk to me. And I really appreciated that. But like I said, I say in the episode, it isn't too late. And even if it's going back and saying, I failed you in this way and I'm really sorry, then that's still worth it.

Greg 1:53

Yeah. Kristen... if you're not familiar with Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, or Kristen, she's also the founder of Defend Young Minds, which is an online resource that's just filled with courses, papers, downloadable uh things that can just help equip parents for engaging these conversations. She said something that might at first blush feel a little controversial when she said that protecting the innocence of our children really shouldn't be the goal. That the goal should be that when they are inevitably faced with harmful content, pornography or otherwise, that that they would be prepared. They would know that it's coming and that we would have invested in them to give them what she says is the ability to make a good choice. That's why we call the episode that. And it's just it's a slightly different way of looking at it, but I think it's a much more integrated and aligned and healthy way because we can put our heads in the sand and say we're going to lock down our router and we should. We should put protective elements in place and we should. But if we say we're doing that so that my kid will never be exposed to porn, that's naive.

Stacey 2:58

You can only do that protection to a degree, I think, in your home. You can't even really 100%.

Greg 3:05

And if you did it uh better than anybody else and your kids went off into adulthood having seen it less than anybody else in the world, but you didn't talk to them about it and didn't prepare them for it, they've been bubble wrapped and now they have no resilience. They don't know what to do when when they don't have those guardrails anymore.

Stacey 3:24

It's not like they need to see it to learn the lesson. That's right. If you're protecting, that's great. But if you don't see it, but then you need to talk about, yeah, when you do, because you will.

Greg 3:34

Because it is there, it is a part of the world in which we live. And Kristen does such a good job being very plain spoken about it, but also very gracious. And so we hope that you will enjoy listening to us talk with Kristen. It's been a long time coming. We met her 10 years ago. We saw her again last fall and said we would love to have you sit down for a conversation. That's what you're about to hear. It's episode 67 with Kristen Jensen, the ability to make a good choice. And the conversation starts right now.

Saying Hello to Kristen

Greg 4:03

I remember when we first met you, it was 10 years ago. It was in Greensboro at the Set Free Summit.

Kristen Jenson 4:10

Oh, yes. That's right.

Greg 4:11

You had a display that was right across from our display. And so it was the first event like that that we'd ever gone to. It was really the first event of its kind, the largest gathering of spiritual leaders to talk about pornography. And you were there, right? And you were set up close to us, and we met, and and that was the first time that I ever heard about good pictures, bad pictures. And it was like, holy moly, like this is something super important. We're dealing largely in recovery. Right. Books like yours kind of help parents get a picture of what pre-covery could look like, you know, getting out ahead of it. Because I I'm just I know I'm just jumping right in, Kristen, but it just seems like being a parent of a young child now has potential to feel so helpless and hopeless. Like, how in the world are we going to raise kids that aren't affected by this? And the the answer is you're probably not, but how can we get ahead of it? So, yeah, that's why we've been really excited to talk to you, Kristen Jensen, author of Good Pictures, Bad Pictures book series and founder of Defend Young Minds. And so thanks for being with us.

Kristen Jenson 5:18

I am so glad to be with both of you, Greg and Stacey. And it's it's so fun to, you know, to come back because we did meet 10 years ago. And then saw each other again last October. Yes. Yeah. That's right.

Greg 5:31

We caught up with you again at the AACC conference in Nashville. That's right. But the thing that was different is there were so many families that we have either given or recommended your resources to in the time since. And that was something I was really grateful to be able to tell you about and just, you know, say thank you for continuing doing what you're doing.

Kristen Jenson 5:51

Well, I think that it is a good resource. And I started hearing this early on that people who are working on this kind of an addiction, you know, what do they tell their kids? How do they kind of help their children so that they can avoid the trap that they fell into? It's or maybe like, how do I explain all the time I have to spend it in treatment or whatever? Like so good pictures, bad pictures is a great resource for for them to help their children. But I've also heard of therapists using it for people in the recovery process because knowing a little bit about the brain without having to read like a 350-page book on it, you know, is helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg 6:36

You know, that's really cool. As soon as you mentioned therapists using it for their adult clients who are in recovery, like it immediately, my brain conjured up the the words inner child. And just thinking about how much inner child work can be helpful in addiction recovery because addiction is bound up to childhood trauma and and so so many unhealed things from our childhood. And so, even to be able to engage our exposure to pornography and and be taken back to when we were the age that we started using that as a strategy, you know, I think it could help so much with the self-contempt that people deal with and where it ended up. But where it ended up isn't where it started. Where it started for a lot of people was as a caregiver and as a security blanket. That's really cool to hear that that therapists have seen its value even for adults.

Kristen Jenson 7:30

Yeah.

Greg 7:31

Well, before we talk more about the book series and other things that you've had going on this past decade, I'd love to ask you the question we always, well, I was gonna say start with, but we're several minutes in. I was gonna say, what is your question coming? The question that comes near the beginning of our conversation is what what do you really want out of the time we're

What Kristen Really Wants

Greg 7:50

gonna spend?

Kristen Jenson 7:50

What I want is to give people encouragement and hope and tools, right? Because pornography can be such like it's just I don't even know how to take the first step. And and there's fear and it just keeps people stuck. So I think that would be the encouragement piece, obviously, awareness and motivation, but I I think the encourag I want to land with encouragement that you can do something for your children and you must, but you can, and there's some good tools out there to get that started. But it's never too late. No, and that's why we changed actually from protect young minds to defend young minds because it's it's never too late to defend your child. It's important to give children these digital defense skills. So we love the word defend. Yeah, yeah, and we think it's it's it's it's a bigger, broader, better uh way to approach it. This idea that you can protect children from exposure is you know, is right now that's just it's a great goal, but it it can't be a hundred percent expectation.

Greg 9:11

We do the best we can, right?

Kristen Jenson 9:13

We do the best we can, but then you've got to have, you know, with the technology and everything, but then you know, you've got to have that internal filter so that your child knows what to do. It's it's it's you we can't do it all for them. I mean, it would be great if adults could just completely protect their children from all dangers. But you know, we teach our children when they start to walk and run, we teach them to stop at the curb, don't run out into the street. Yeah, because dangerous things. So we're teaching them some refusal skills, we're teaching them so you know, some skills so they they can actually protect themselves. And it's the same way with the internet, yeah.

Stacey 9:53

Isn't that interesting how we don't bat an eye about to stop at the street? But like if we could just keep them from ever seeing pornography, then we're fine. But why wouldn't we teach them along the way? I mean, just watch a cartoon and you're probably gonna get a commercial at some point that you don't want to.

Greg 10:09

Well, especially since so much of what kids are watching is online and it's more like clips rather than whole shows. And yeah, and so the things that that, you know, the the ads that accompany the things that people are watching are far less appropriately targeted. And and it's just so hard to monitor that. So yeah, I mean, what I'm hearing you talk about is yeah, of course we protect in every way that we can, but knowing that we're not going to be able to fully, we use the space that the protection we're able to give creates to really lean in and prepare them for when they're doing it on their own. Right. Something you said a minute ago of, well, wouldn't it be nice if we could protect them from all of it? And there's a part of me that says, well, maybe not, because you know, if we could protect them from everything and and bubble wrap them, then by the time they are on their own, then they don't have any resilience built up. But what your books do and what your resources and tools do is it doesn't, it doesn't neglect that part, you know, and it presumes that everybody's gonna be touched by by some kind of exposure to harmful content. And so how do we prepare them to know what

Why Innocence Is Not The Goal

Greg 11:19

to do?

Kristen Jenson 11:19

And yeah, so I would say that, you know, a lot of people say we want to protect a child's innocence. I am gonna make the bold statement that innocence is not the goal. Innocence is not the goal. What's what is the goal? The goal is wisdom, the goal is discernment, the goal is the ability to make a good choice. That's the goal. If our goal is innocence, uh it's an impossible thing because at some point we all get exposed. Even not even talking about pornography, but other kinds of evils, I guess I'll just say that. So it's important that children know how to choose because innocence is. I mean, yes, it would be nice if they could be innocent through the age of some certain age, but you can't guarantee that in the world that we live in today, you can't. If if the kid can get a hold of a screen, they need a gentle warning. They need something because you just can never predict when they're going to be shown something or see something.

Greg 12:26

Yeah.

Kristen Jenson 12:27

And the overconfidence that some parents have in that, I think is a downfall. I think it's something we need to like address because we just need to prepare our children.

Greg 12:41

I'm so glad that you brought up innocence that and and said what you did about it, because on the one hand, like if you're listening to this and you are a Christian, if you come from a faith background and you know your Bible, I mean, is it is it fair to say, like, we haven't had a context for living in true innocence since before the fall Eden, you know? And and one day there's going to be a life where there's no brokenness and there's no, you know, there's no pain, there's nothing evil attacking us anymore. But in all of the time in between that, like, yeah, I mean, innocence is going to be limited and it's and it's not a great goal. But then the other thing I thought about when you said that is being exposed involuntarily to pornography doesn't degrade a child's innocence in any way, shape, or form. You know, and and so high a percentage of kids' first exposure to porn was unintentional or accidental. And nothing in that moment from one to the next changed how innocent they were.

Kristen Jenson 13:41

You know, in my junior book, it actually shows that.

Greg 13:44

I don't know if you're I've got a copy of it right here.

Kristen Jenson 13:49

So do I.

Greg 13:51

I figure you're probably never too far away, but yeah, there we go.

Kristen Jenson 13:55

But there's one part that really speaks to this. Sometimes kids see bad pictures by accident, but even if you see a bad picture, that doesn't make you a bad kid, right? There's something good you can do if you see a bad picture. So we're very clear, not shaming. When you think about theology, who if you're a believer in a God that knows everything and a God that is divine, well, God knows everything, he's seen everything. Does that make him not holy or not divine?

Greg 14:29

No, that's a good way of looking at it.

Kristen Jenson 14:32

You know, not innocent, of course, not, but he has seen everything, he's seen much worse than probably any of us have ever seen. If our children see these things, the fact that they can reject them, that is the good choice. That's what we want to implant in them. And you know, we can't just have the uh, you know, cross your fingers and hope that they don't see anything until the week after you decide to start talking to them about it. I mean, if I had a crystal ball, you know, there are certain stocks that I would have bought about 20 years ago. So, yeah, so it I'm I'm terrible at picking stocks. So I'm I I don't know that we many of us are can pick the moment or the day that our child is going to get exposed. Most of us and studies show that parents underestimate this. Nobody needs to do that. We can just get started as soon as they have any access to a screen, we can start giving them a gentle warning. I I walk the walk, I talk, the talk, the talk, and I walk the walk, and I've read this to my grandsons, yeah, starting at age like two and a half. As soon as they're willing to sit on your lap and look at a book, we do it.

Start Early And Remove Shame

Greg 15:46

You know, there's so many things in the last two minutes that you've been talking that I think deserve maybe a slowdown and a zoom in. Because the and the the last one is the one I'll talk about first. Is you talked about as young as two and a half, and some parents are listening and they're like, What? You know, like you, I can't believe you're you said that. I was thinking you were gonna say maybe nine, maybe ten, you know, but the concept of having age-appropriate conversations about the body and about sexuality and gender, way before even screen, like to get those conversational priorities set and in motion, you know, and have it as an established thing that you do so that by the time the screen talk comes up, it's like the next chapter. It's not having to start a brand new, like, I don't know how to do this because I've been doing it. And so that's one thing.

Stacey 16:40

Well, call one thing we say, like people ask us all the time, what do I do with my little kids? How do how do I pop? And I'm like, well, first of all, start calling the body parts their actual names and not nicknames because I mean, we were we did that, we had nicknames for everything because we were just like, Oh, can't call it that. I'm like, well, start that way. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Yes, you can.

Kristen Jenson 17:03

If they don't they're they're they're not going to, it's the context, you know. If you're not exactly all worried about it, if you just say, and and that's the beauty of kind of going at it in a more scientific way. Yeah, because I mean, yes, there are values, of course, but to just say this is what it is, yeah. And these are special words. And you may want to say, these are words we use in our family, but other families may use other words. Yeah, you know, you may want to say that kind of thing, but in your family, you're you're willing to be open, and then that child grows up feeling safe and that they can talk to you about anything. Yep. And, you know, it begins this normalization of these conversations, and they are protective. Those conversations truly are protective, and they've done some studies that show that.

Greg 17:56

So the other thing that I thought was so helpful about the the last thing you were sharing is when you read that excerpt from Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Jr., and the line that basically says, just because you've seen bad pictures doesn't make you a bad kid. I feel like sometimes you can tell what's a better children's book versus a not so great children's book, and that the way that it's written says that the author understands something about human growth and development and the way that kids process the world. And particularly the younger the kid, the more egocentrically they process the world. And it's all about me. If something good happens, it's look what I did. If something bad happens, it's oh, this is my fault. And just to have something that you can read that doesn't make a big deal out of it, but just gets that reinforced. It gets it said, and then the every time you read it, it reinforces. There's a difference between seeing something bad and doing something bad. And there's the difference between both of those things and being bad.

Kristen Jenson 20:04

You know, Greg, I have to tell you, it was at a conference that when I was writing this book, that I was kind of passing around some going, just catching people and saying, read this. What would you add? What would you take away? What are your thoughts? And somebody that was also doing recovery work sat down with me, he looked through it, he says, Okay, Kristen, you have got to put this in it. And he says, You've got to put, even though I would see a bad picture that doesn't make me a bad kidney, it just totally gave me the line. Oh, that's great. So I'm telling you, I've had a lot. This is why I think these books work, is because they weren't written really totally by me. Yeah, that's it. That's the secret. I've done my very smart people. Yeah. It was like crowdsourced and lots of feedback. And so, yes, it I've been given some of the best lines in both of these books, or all the books, are from other people.

Stacey 21:06

Oh, wow. That speaks before we move on from that line. I was thinking about the parents that are listening, remember that when you're reading it to your kid and how you respond when they see something. Because I think a lot of parents might react in a way that makes the kid, they might not say they did anything wrong or they're a bad person for doing it, but they're gonna react in a way that the kid is gonna receive. Oh gosh, I can't, I shouldn't have done that. Or I know before recovery, I think I would have done that. Like, oh my gosh, how did you find that? And then that makes them feel like they've done something. They've done something wrong.

Kristen Jenson 21:41

So just well, and how many kids feel, you know, if their parent has a problem or if their parent or if they get divorced or like it's the kids' fault? Like it's true. Kids take upon themselves so much shame.

Greg 21:53

I want, and we've been talking a lot about the motive behind the book, what you're hoping for from the books. I want to go back for a minute to the origin story of the books, uh, because you talk about this a little bit on the Defend Young Minds website. This whole thing started with a phone call that you got about 15 years ago from a friend.

Kristen Jenson 22:16

Yeah. So I moved to a new town and met this woman and she had a large family. She was homeschooling, she was doing everything because she was sexually abused as a child. And she wanted to protect her children. She did everything that she thought she could do. But her oldest son, they found out that he was, he was 17 at the time. They found out that he had been sexually molesting his younger brothers and sisters. So from the 14-year-old down to the four-year-old, you know, porn was really feeling that. Now, I will say uh he had been sexually molested himself by a foster care sister, I guess, older child. But when he went into treatment in my state, there's a treatment program, and he had like eight other young men who also were acting out sexually on their siblings. Other young children. None of them, none of them had a hands-on perpetrator. It was all porn. Yeah. It was all porn. Porn was the perpetrator. Porn was what was sexually abusing these young men. Then they were doing what kids do, which is imitate what they see adults do because they have

The Phone Call That Sparked It

Kristen Jenson 23:30

all these mirror neurons in their brains. Yes. And so make a child want to imitate. And so then they started doing that on children that were more vulnerable. So she told me the story. We talked to like 1:30 in the morning. Oh, wow. And I woke up the next morning and I just had this persistent thought come to my brain. Like it was all about like warning the young children. How is how are we going to warn the young children? And this is not a topic I ever wanted to do anything about. This is not my life goal, you know. But I don't know. I just felt very curious. Like, so I just went on Amazon, went online searching for a book because I'm like, I know there are body safety books, but I couldn't find a book about pornography. And I'm like, kids are getting exposed. Like, how is there not a book? How is there not a book? And then I had this thought, well, you know, you've I've done a lot of like writing, technical writing, and that kind of thing. And I have a degree in literature and a master's degree. So I was like, well, maybe I can try my hand at this. And I started doing some research. And so that was the beginning of writing good pictures, bad pictures, pornproofing today's young kids. And that was published in 2014, 12 years ago. Here we are now with two other books, three other books really, and just trying to get tools out there to parents to help them begin these conversations.

Greg 25:24

That is that range, generally speaking.

Kristen Jenson 25:27

Seven to eleven, seven to eleven, depending. Like I've had parents go through this with teenagers. Yeah. Look, sit down. We're just going to go through this information. And they use it like as an outline, you know. Yeah, yeah. And but really focusing, like you said, on pre-covery, on prevention. So kids are not caught off guard. Because when kids are caught, when I'm caught off guard, yeah, you know, I don't do very well. I'm not one of these people that can think on their feet very well. But, and children, how are they gonna deal with this if no one's ever given them a heads up and let them know what to do? So, you know, I often tell this story where a mom read her nine-year-old son, good pictures, bad pictures, and three days later, you know, he goes to school and you know, a kid comes up with a smartphone. Hey, look at this, shows them pornography, and that kid recognized it, he turned away, and he went home and he told his mom, I was scared, but I knew what to do. Oh I was scared, but I knew what to do. And kids deserve to know what to do because no kid deserves to face the porn industry alone.

Stacey 26:45

Wow.

Kristen Jenson 26:45

Right.

Stacey 26:46

That's that's what we want. That's what would that would make me just when our kids talk to us about stuff, even if it's way after the fact or down the road, I'll be like, Did you know you could come? Did you feel like you could come to us? Yeah, oh yeah, I just wasn't ready. And like as long as they knew they could, that just gives me comfort.

Greg 27:04

Yeah.

Stacey 27:04

Yeah.

Greg 27:05

Yeah.

Stacey 27:05

So that's beautiful.

Greg 27:06

And so this year there's a new one. It's good pictures, bad pictures, guide for girls, how I stay safe, smart, and confident. And I am just gonna I have ideas as to how you might answer this question, but instead of speculating, I'm just gonna ask it. What specifically was the rationale, the felt need, the motivation behind differentiating the content and having a one that was specifically for girls?

Kristen Jenson 27:37

Because I saw the shame, the absolute shame that women and girls were feeling that got caught into this. And this kind of idea that, oh, girls are immune. And I saw girls be more, I had therapists tell me girls are more vulnerable actually, because no one thinks that they're going to get into it. So you're giving them you know smartphones earlier, you're letting them on social media, you're like be like, oh, you'll be fine. And so the same parents that would not do that for their son and would be kind of worried, are unfortunately, you know, just saying it's so that was part of it. But also, I had parents asking me for this book. Like, I need a book for my daughter, and they would, and one one woman said, just change the pictures, everything else is fine, just change the pictures. I'm like, I gotta do a little bit more on that, you know. And so I did over the years, we produced a lot of articles from experts on you know, women and girls and pornography and why they

Why A Guide Specifically For Girls

Kristen Jenson 28:45

get into it, how they get into it, how it harms them, maybe even differently than boys. And then after that, I was I felt like I was able to kind of collect all that wisdom and start to come up with an outline of like, what do I want to put in this book that isn't in the original book? What do girls need to hear, especially for girls? So that was the beginning of it. But really, it came down to obviously parents asking me for it. When parents asked me for something like, yeah, I'm gonna listen to that. But also just the deep shame that women especially were feeling when they got pulled into this, and they just thought they were the only woman that had this problem, and it was just such a shadowy, like, oh, dark thing that I don't know. I wanted I I wanted to come out so that girls knew that they are vulnerable to this, I just wanted to lessen the shame. I don't know.

Greg 29:48

No, that that that would be reasonable.

Kristen Jenson 29:50

And increase the protection.

Greg 29:52

That would be reason enough, Kristen. I mean, if if girls who struggle, which we know that the gap between girls who struggle and boys who struggle is rapidly closing. I mean, there's not nearly the gap that there used to be. If girls who struggle with sexual feelings and confusion and dabbling in or experimenting with pornography could change their internal narrative from how could I to no wonder. I mean, that would be such a great start because this doesn't happen for no reason. I mean, I'm just thinking about something you said a minute ago. Because there's the stereotype that this is something that boys deal with and girls don't, you said we give them phones younger, we let them get on social media younger. And I mean, those two things, it's like handing two loaded guns to a kid and saying, well, don't hurt, don't hurt yourself or anybody else. I mean, think about a young, impressionable girl who's given all of the information available on planet Earth in a device and also social media, which is the the grossest comparison attack that exists, you know, because social media doesn't show real, it it shows ideal. And so they've got all of this self-esteem struggle, they've got all this not as good at, and and it and it fuels anxiety. And we know that what sexual acting out does to anxiety in the moment, it makes us feel peaceful, makes us feel like we're calming down. And so many young girls are getting addicted to masturbation, not because they have an overactive sex drive, but because their anxiety is off the charts. And they've found a strategy that will alleviate that. And then and here comes porn. So, yeah, I mean, the shame that goes along with the before, during, and after, if that was the only reason you gave for writing this this book, there doesn't need to be another reason. I mean, that I'm sure you could give multiple ones, but that that is a lot of people. Well, there are.

Kristen Jenson 31:49

Well, I feel like too, I mean, there's studies that show this. So the girls that watch pornography, use pornography, are more at a much higher risk of beginning sexual behavior earlier and getting into like much riskier sexual acts.

Greg 32:07

Because that's what they see in porn.

Kristen Jenson 32:09

That's what they see in porn. Also, they objectify themselves. So they get used to this idea that it's okay for someone to treat me violently during sex, and it's okay, you know, this is expected. You know, I should be choked and my hair should be pulled, and other horrible things should be done to me. That's horrific. What does it do to their self-esteem when they see themselves as an object? And I just want to make one thing clear is that the books do not go into sex.

Greg 32:44

Right.

Kristen Jenson 32:45

That's a separate conversation. So you can use these books before you've had that begun that conversation. Although I would say, say begin it earlier rather than later. The problem is that they will be, it's very possible that they can see pornography before you've started those talks. And that's, you know, I have some pretty horrific stories about three-year-olds and five-year-olds. But, you know, we're going back to the idea of innocence, children who know to recognize and report and reject pornography can actually maintain more of their own innocence. There was a girl that 11-year-old girl, her mother read her good pictures, bad pictures. Actually, she was one of my beta readers back in the day. So this girl was on a school bus, they were going on a field trip, a kid came back, showed him some pornography, and she knew what it was. She her mom had talked to her, right? They'd had these conversations, and she turned away. But what did her friend do that was sitting right next to her? Her friend kept looking. And uh, you know, she went home and told her mom. That mom called the mom of the other girl, thankfully. But kids can actually preserve their innocence to a much greater degree, or at least protect themselves from seeing this stuff if they're taught to reject it. Because if they're not, it's like this is interesting, this is novel, this is new, and my parents haven't talked to me about this. So parents think, oh, well, if my child ever saw anything like that, they would just come and tell me. No, no, no, that's usually the last thing they'll do.

Stacey 34:26

Wasn't there something in their mind just no that they shouldn't talk about that? That nobody told them.

Greg 34:32

And again, if I saw something bad, then I've done something bad and I don't want to have I don't want to be shamed by somebody else either. And so often they are at the point of their cognitive development to where they don't even have the words to understand what's going on. It's more of something that they're feeling. It it doesn't feel like the thing to do is talk to mom and dad. And, you know, just a word to mom and dad, like you can't control that a hundred percent. But what you can do is influence it. Because if you're the no-freak out parents, then at least they don't have exhibit A, exhibit B to go back and say, well, the last time I did talk to mom and dad, they freaked out. And so, you know, it's no the if you don't freak out, it's no guarantee they're gonna tell you. But if you do freak out, it's gonna all but guarantee that they won't.

Kristen Jenson 35:22

Yeah, it's true. When you were saying that kids just don't have the vocabulary, that is true. There was a mom that she dropped her girls off at a little play date at a friend's house, and this is before she had any idea about smartphones and what they could see on it. And when she went to pick them up, they were looking at something on a phone. This little girl that they were visiting was showing them something. And they got back in the car and she says, you know, what was she showing you on her phone? And they kind of looked at each other and they're like, Oh, it was it was a My Little Pony video. And they lied. And months later, when she read them Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, they they fessed up in us and and they said, Mom, she was showing us, you know, these bad pictures. And she said, My girls simply didn't have the vocabulary, they didn't know how to even begin a conversation with me about this to report it.

Stacey 36:21

I was thinking about something we're talking about innocence. I'm 54 and I don't know how I've managed to, I have not been exposed to pornography. Like I grew up on the mission field, so I was in Africa in the tribe. We'll just say that it was out in the bush. And so I didn't see anything. And I mean, I didn't even see magazines or anything. I know it was around, I didn't know it was around at the time, but but I'm uh my point is even that if you think about oh, this girl got protected, she never saw, but nobody nobody talked to me about anything. So, like any feelings that I had, those felt wrong to me because I had no idea that actually I would even feel that thing. And so I think this idea of innocence, I mean, there's an innocence you're talking about that they can still have that's good, but they also aren't equipped if you don't have these conversations, even if they don't see pornography, which I don't know now how people could not, but you've got to talk to them so that they know that these the way that your body responds, even in, I know one of ours saw again, somebody showed them something at school. And I told her, if you feel things when you see something, somebody flashes it like this, and you look away, which she did, and she came and told me. She was in high school. And I'm like, if you feel things when you see these things that you know aren't good, but you feel like don't think that that means anything is wrong. That just means your body responded to a sexual image.

Kristen Jenson 37:52

So this is the chapter, my attraction center. Uh-huh. And we talk about the attraction center and how those feelings get turned on, you know, by these pictures prematurely. And that's the other thing, too, is so we have a guide called, Hey, my kids saw porn now, what? Something like that.

Greg 38:10

I've read it, I've shared it.

Kristen Jenson 38:13

The smart plan. And so one of those things is to help your child understand those feelings that they feel because they're going to feel shock and sometimes like, oh my gosh, it's disgusting, but they're also going to feel it possibly intrigue and arousal. So that's the thing is like to prepare them to understand they may have two very different feelings at the same time, and that that's normal, and they're not bad, they're not monsters, they're not degenerates because they felt something. And that's a lot of people, you know, that get, I'm sure you know this, that get into pornography, you know, as they escalate, they get to a point where they're watching things that so conflict with their values. How is it that I am, you know, using this material that is so violent? And I think that that's a great conversation for an older child, right? Where you've already talked to them. But but yes, it's important that the kids understand that those feelings are not bad. Those are those are normal, natural feelings, but pornography is hijacking them. Pornography is the great counterfeit. And they're not a bad kid if they have those kinds of reactions. In the original book, we talk about how sometimes seeing those pictures can feel like the pull of a giant magnet. Because again, somebody described that

Helping Kids Process Shock And Arousal

Kristen Jenson 39:42

to me. He said, When I saw those pictures, I felt like it was a giant mag just pulling me in. We don't want kids to feel ashamed that they just had a normal reaction, they're a biological reaction to this. Now, listen, if your kids are robot kids, you can just, you know, change the software when it's for reprogramming them. But if you have biological children, yeah, they very well can have a biological reaction to seeing hypersexualized pictures.

Greg 40:16

And when you talked about the different things that are going on in the mind and in the nervous system of a kid who unexpectedly sees pornography, and you used disgust and arousal in the same sentence. I mean, parents who are listening, I just want you to think about your kid at the age that they are right now, and how in the world are they able to process disgust and arousal at the same thing without any help? They can't do it. They are unable to process that. Now think about the the string that that then extends through their future, and what is that gonna do to their entire relationship with sexual desire when one of the initial foundational experiences was a blend of disgust and arousal. Then that's gonna carry on and it's gonna get in the way of their ability to bless their sexual feelings, of their ability to bond sexually with their with their partner when they get married. I mean, this thing goes on and on and on. We don't leave those past experiences in the past. And so, you know, it's the goal is not 100% keep them from happening. We've already talked about that. But the goal is help them to process a trauma, because let me tell you something, a six-year-old seeing violent porn is a traumatic experience. Whether or not that stays as a long-lasting trauma largely depends on the way that we respond to it. Do we teach them, do we help them to process, do we help them to see what it was and what it wasn't? They'll always have a sense of this happened, but it won't have that hook or that strong magnetic pull anymore because we called it what it was. We didn't allow them to take it to a place of of unnecessary shame, and we taught them what to do with it. And my gosh, what I mean, what are parents supposed to do if not things like that? And and so, you know, parents, you might not feel like their stewardship.

Kristen Jenson 42:18

Yeah, it's part of their stewardship.

Greg 42:20

Yeah, and as we're getting ready to land, I just want to kind of take it to something that I want to point out, and then Kristen lets you talk. Parents who are listening are saying, I want to do it, I don't know how to do it. Guess what? There are a lot more people who can help you with that than there used to be. And and that's one of the things I'm I'm thinking about you and what we've talked about today. I'm thinking about what Chris McKenna talked about with Protect Young Eyes. I'm thinking about what Kristen Miele with Sex Ed Reclaimed talked about. I mean, there are so many helpful people doing amazing work. There are tools out there that are extremely helpful, that are going to be age graded. So wherever you are as a parent, wherever your kids are, there are people like you, Kristen, who are saying, we're here to help. This is like why we get up in the morning. It's not the only reason we get up in the morning, but like this is what we're doing. And so come on. Like, and you give so much of your stuff away for free, too. I don't want to uh not say that. That's really critical too, because I take that as a let's remove any barrier to the parents being able to get the help that they need.

Kristen Jenson 43:26

Everything that I do with social media outreach, everything that I do with the free stuff that we give away on our website, defendyoungminds.com, is funded by the book sales, right? So we want it to be open, we want those articles to be out there, not behind a paywall. And so that was intentional. Making money is not the primary goal here. If if that were the truth, I would be doing something different. Yeah.

Greg 43:52

I mean, you're you're probably not allergic to making some money here, but like that's not the motivation.

Kristen Jenson 43:56

Yeah, I don't think we're gonna get rich doing what we do.

Greg 43:58

Right,

Tools, Free Resources, And Repair

Greg 43:59

right.

Kristen Jenson 44:00

Well, so well, it's it's important to know that there are tools out there and that they really are something that will be helpful to beginning these conversations and continuing these conversations. I always say to parents, get the facts, arm the kids, and continue the conversations and then put that on repeat. Keep getting the facts, keep yourself aware. You can do that by getting signing up for our newsletter on defendyoungminds.com, ordering a guide, and you can continue to arm your children and continue these conversations so that by the time they leave the nest, you've had lots of conversations. Now it doesn't mean that they can't make their own choices, yeah, but at least you have given them a good foundation, even something to circle back to. That's right. Even if they've been and made some wrong choices, which you know, all of us have, right?

Greg 45:01

The porch light is on, the breadcrumbs have been laid down, they have a way to get back. And and that's really, you know, that that's That's hard for parents to know that they can't control fully the things that we'd like to be able to control, but that's not even what we're being asked to do. We're being asked to steward that role faithfully and to let them know hey, this is what you can do with this. And I mean, I just said this is what you can do. For people who haven't read the books, can do is a very, very critical part of good pictures, bad pictures. And so if you don't know what that means, quickly go to wherever you buy books and get this series. You know, if your kids are grown, if you're starting to have grandchildren, get them to have at your house. If you are friends in your church or at your workplace with parents who are having young children, you know, let them know. I can't tell you how many of my friends who are younger than me who have kids who are kind of in the appropriate range that I've told and they've come back to me and they've said, oh my gosh, thanks so much for recommending that book. So I just want to to give you kind of that honor, Kristen, and say thank you for taking that phone call from 2011 and saying, you know, I'm sure that you said some comforting things to your friend and you could have left it at that. But you said, What is anybody doing about this? And the answer was almost nothing or nothing or not enough for sure. And I'm going to do something about it. And so, you know, we thank you. It's helped us, it's helped our family, it's helped a lot of families.

Stacey 46:29

I just think about parents that I mean, we've talked to have friends and like I didn't do any of this, and my kids are grown, and they just have all this feeling terrible. And I would say, consider just going to your kids and saying, just becoming aware of all this. And I'm so sorry that I did not do this for you. And you know, the repair piece, you know, just it's never too late to have that part, and then maybe that changes the dynamic of your relationship in different ways. And so anyway, I just think, yeah, it's just never too late.

Kristen Jenson 47:03

Yeah, when I speak with youth like teenagers and their parents, I will say that. I will say, I just want you to know that if no one ever warned you about this and it pulled you in, I just want to apologize. And I am so sorry that you live in a world and you were not given a heads up. But today we're gonna talk about this and it'll help you, right? We're that's kind of what I but I do, and I do encourage parents to get out there with an apology. It's okay, you know, you did your best, and maybe you just didn't know. So all of us as parents, I've apologized to my kids for things that you know I did wrong and I messed up, and I think it's helped our relationship. But the books are just meant to be very easy. You know, you are probably already reading books to your children, and you know, one of the most surprising things that have that's happened has been that I've heard back from so many parents that these books are their children's favorite books. That's amazing. Okay, I did not see that coming. I did not see that coming. But why? Like, I don't know.

Greg 48:15

Like, is it because it's real, because it's what's all around them and it's relevant. And they they don't even know what the word relevant means.

Stacey 48:21

They feel empowered, yeah. That's right.

Greg 48:23

And they know that this is this is touching on something that's really important, even if they don't know how to describe it that way. Well, Kristen, you said that what you wanted was encouragement to give hope to hope, to offer tools. And I I really hope I believe that the people listening to this point have been encouraged that there is something you can do, you know, hope that it isn't too late, and a very clear path to find those tools that can help you do the things that you want to do as a parent. So I hope that you got what you wanted. I know that we did.

Stacey 48:56

I'm encouraged.

Greg 48:57

Yeah. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. Just been a real, just a real treat.

Kristen Jenson 49:03

Well, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.